Nov. 3rd take 2...

[Todd Brisson]

Just an interesting thought but if RED is taking orders in a few weeks but not advising people to start loading their RED accounts with wire transfers... does that mean whatever we buy will be able to fit on a credit card?

I assume that at least the deposit would have to go on plastic, but still hoping for a fixed lens 2/3 in the $5-6K range which coincidentally fits nicely on most CC's.

 

[Andre G.]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Eric Lange]

Ive never bought anything RED before, looking to get a scarlet and an Epic S (if its still on the roadmap). How does it work? Newbie question I know...

Me too.

Time to get stuck into RED "platform".

Ta.

 

[Steve Gibby]

nice to see you again in the forums steve. good luck with your production. say hi to Ketch for me. Greetings from Twin Falls Idaho.

Thanks Albert...good to hear from you

 

[Phil Anderson]

The indie filmmaker was clearly an intended target. I don't understand why people insist on dismissing that.

I think two reasons. First, it was and is an intended target. Yes. Second, I think if we go back to 2008, this was before the mania of DSLRs, and then the AF100 and FS100 came out. Had the 2/3" Scarlet been released in 2009 like originally hoped, it would have been aimed more that way. But the sands have shifted some, as has some focus, dictated by customers. A LOT of people used to working with large 2/3" sensor cameras, whether they shoot cinema, or they shoot docs/spots/eng, etc. will still gravitate towards it. I do believe there will be a fair amount of indie films shot on it, yes. But I think the audience has shown it's more the current lot of 2/3" shooters, that's all.

The idea with the Scarlet announcement is that once you read the specs and you want to pull the trigger that you can order on the spot?

I've only read what Red has said, and what's on these boards, but I'm going to guess that if you order on the 3rd, it will probably ship to you within a week or two. Order after that, and it may take a week or so longer. I have a serious hunch that if you order after that, it won't take longer than maybe a month to get to you, at the very most.

We're talking Scarlet here. As we know Scarlet will release then. Epic-S on the other hand I do think we'll hear an announcement on, and it's anyone's guess as to when that will be ready to ship. My blind guess is before the end of the year. But who knows?

 

[Eric Lange]

I think two reasons. First, it was and is an intended target. Yes. Second, I think if we go back to 2008, this was before the mania of DSLRs, and then the AF100 and FS100 came out. Had the 2/3" Scarlet been released in 2009 like originally hoped, it would have been aimed more that way. But the sands have shifted some, as has some focus, dictated by customers. A LOT of people used to working with large 2/3" sensor cameras, whether they shoot cinema, or they shoot docs/spots/eng, etc. will still gravitate towards it. I do believe there will be a fair amount of indie films shot on it, yes. But I think the audience has shown it's more the current lot of 2/3" shooters, that's all.



I've only read what Red has said, and what's on these boards, but I'm going to guess that if you order on the 3rd, it will probably ship to you within a week or two. Order after that, and it may take a week or so longer. I have a serious hunch that if you order after that, it won't take longer than maybe a month to get to you, at the very most.

We're talking Scarlet here. As we know Scarlet will release then. Epic-S on the other hand I do think we'll hear an announcement on, and it's anyone's guess as to when that will be ready to ship. My blind guess is before the end of the year. But who knows?

Thanks for the input/opinion, I have this sense that Epic-S and Scarlet are more closely related than they were before (as “billed”). The other Idea I get almost by osmosis and hype/enthusiasm is that Nov 3rd has the dust sheet pulled off some of the more concrete parts of the RED roadmap. i.e. Dragon and some other goodies. It just seems so wild that all sorts of things seem to be in flux even at this stage of the game.


Cheers,

Eric

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I could be completely wrong but I have serious doubts that Scarlet/Epic-S are now one and the same. If anything becomes one and the same to me the most sense would be Epic-S/Scarlet-FF35. People who are used to 1Ds/5Ds want a 24p camera for DSMC and they don't need to shoot 120 fps. They're used to 5fps so 24/48 would be a luxury. Maybe Scarlet will get the monstro gen chip. Maybe.

The Epic-S has to be 'dealt' with one way or another. It's so late now that it's probably going to overlap the dragon release if it does in fact release after Stage 4 as was previously stated. Having Dragon/Monstro-Gen chips while releasing a MX chip which is over a year old now just doesn't make sense.

My dream Nov 3 announcement would be:

Scarlet is now Monstro/Dragon Gen with an additional 1.5 stops of latitude. Shipping today.
Epic-S is now a Dragon/FF35 6k camera up to 50 fps or 25fps with HDRx designed to embody DSMC with a line of electronic lenses. Shipping this spring.
Epic-X Dragon upgrades start this spring.
Also here are our 4:3 aspect anamorphics.

Epic-S with its reduced processing power makes the most sense as a FF35 camera. It becomes a FF35 DSLR that can shoot 24p/25p footage in a pinch. And Epic-Dragon covers the need for a FF35 Epic.

That takes 4 cameras (FF35 Scarlet, FF35 Epic, Epic and Epic-S) and consolidates them down to 2 (Epic-X/Dragon, Epic-S).

 

[Sergio Perez]

I could be completely wrong but I have serious doubts that Scarlet/Epic-S are now one and the same. If anything becomes one and the same to me the most sense would be Epic-S/Scarlet-FF35. People who are used to 1Ds/5Ds want a 24p camera for DSMC and they don't need to shoot 120 fps. They're used to 5fps so 24/48 would be a luxury. Maybe Scarlet will get the monstro gen chip. Maybe.

The Epic-S has to be 'dealt' with one way or another. It's so late now that it's probably going to overlap the dragon release if it does in fact release after Stage 4 as was previously stated. Having Dragon/Monstro-Gen chips while releasing a MX chip which is over a year old now just doesn't make sense.

My dream Nov 3 announcement would be:

Scarlet is now Monstro/Dragon Gen with an additional 1.5 stops of latitude. Shipping today.
Epic-S is now a Dragon/FF35 6k camera up to 50 fps or 25fps with HDRx designed to embody DSMC with a line of electronic lenses. Shipping this spring.
Epic-X Dragon upgrades start this spring.
Also here are our 4:3 aspect anamorphics.

Epic-S with its reduced processing power makes the most sense as a FF35 camera. It becomes a FF35 DSLR that can shoot 24p/25p footage in a pinch.

Gavin, interesting thoughts.

I think that we will see that the Scarlet will be completely modular, like the Epic. By modular it means it has different "Brains" that will interchange with the DSMC acessories. Modularity has been the constant aspect in Jim's posts. So I think that we will have different flavors of Scarlet "Brains". I don't see, however, the Scarlet "Fixed" to appear in the announcement. If it does, I think it will make many happy. EDIT- By being 2/3 rds I see many shooting 3D wanting to get this for their productions- smaller sensor, deeper DOF, better 3D use. Not for me, though. Interchangeable all the way.

I'm almost sure we will hear about the new sensor. The Epic is going to "grow" into a monster very soon, I believe. My hope is that this upgrade will be almost "symbolic" for current Epic owners. Something like 2000 to 3000 USD ( I say this because I plan on going Epic )

This new sensor is going to be the new benchmark of high end imaging acquisition. It will maximize Dynamic Range and have HDRX fully developed and optimized for it. The price of the Epic will increase in 2012 because of this new sensor technology.

Only 2 weeks to go...

 

[Eric Lange]

I could be completely wrong but I have serious doubts that Scarlet/Epic-S are now one and the same. ...
...
...

My dream Nov 3 announcement would be:

Epic-S is now a Dragon/FF35 6k camera up to 50 fps or 25fps with HDRx designed to embody DSMC with a line of electronic lenses. Shipping this spring.

Epic-X Dragon upgrades start this spring.
...
Epic-S with its reduced processing power makes the most sense as a FF35 camera. It becomes a FF35 DSLR that can shoot 24p/25p footage in a pinch. And
That takes 4 cameras (FF35 Scarlet, FF35 Epic, Epic and Epic-S) and consolidates them down to 2 (Epic-X/Dragon, Epic-S).

That would be crazy awesome (for me/us) but almost too hard to believe…

E.

 

[Bryce O]

Canon's 1Dx was just announced... it's not looking good for Canon. Dual DigicV (supposedly 17x the processing power of the 5D) and still only 30p 1080p in video mode. Not cool. :thumbdown:

I guess the 1D line is more aimed at hardcore photographers... but still, I would have thought they'd have at least a 1080p 60fps mode.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Canon's 1Dx was just announced... it's not looking good for Canon. Dual DigicV (supposedly 17x the processing power of the 5D) and still only 30p 1080p in video mode. Not cool. :thumbdown:

I guess the 1D line is more aimed at hardcore photographers... but still, I would have thought they'd have at least a 1080p 60fps mode.

The key aspect of this camera is LOW LIGHT. 100 000 Iso... This camera is going to be the king of Guerrilla shooting. I'm serioulsy considering this for that aspect alone. Also, they say dual digic V will greatly reduce moire and other artifacts.

Bottom line, this camera will sell loads, provided it stays in the current 1D Mark IV price range.

Jim, time for another hint?

 

[Bryce O]

The key aspect of this camera is LOW LIGHT. 100 000 Iso... This camera is going to be the king of Guerrilla shooting. I'm serioulsy considering this for that aspect alone. Also, they say dual digic V will greatly reduce moire and other artifacts.

Bottom line, this camera will sell loads, provided it stays in the current 1D Mark IV price range.

Jim, time for another hint?

It'll definitely be cool, for sure. But still... a 30fps limit makes it basically un-usable for a great deal of music video or commercial production. 60fps is an absolute must for the next generation video devices...

I can't remember a project in the last year I've done that I haven't wanted 60fps or more over-cranking...

But that's just me... other people are perfectly content with 24/30fps.

 

[Sergio Perez]

It'll definitely be cool, for sure. But still... a 30fps limit makes it basically un-usable for a great deal of music video or commercial production. 60fps is an absolute must for the next generation video devices...

I can't remember a project in the last year I've done that I haven't wanted 60fps or more over-cranking...

But that's just me... other people are perfectly content with 24/30fps.

EDIT- I say this but I have my financing ready for an Epic-X, which is in a completely different championship to this. As a DSMC, however, this is probably as close as we're going to get from Canon, I believe.

However, compare this to, say, a FS100, and I can see this camera as being a much better value than the sony. This is the "poor man's" DSMC Monstro- due to its full fame, moire free 1080p. (until the Scarlet shows itself, that is). The 5D is the "really poor man's" DSMC Monstro- with artifacts galore.

EDIT- I hope that RED in their next sensor upgrade can improve in the ISO performance. I'm not talking about this ridiculous number, but a noise free 6400 ISO, or a 800ISO noise equivalent in 6400 ISO would be enough for a Guerrilla shooter like me.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

That would be crazy awesome (for me/us) but almost too hard to believe…

E.

It's essentially the Scarlet FF35. Which was supposed to come out in Winter 2009. I don't know that hoping for something 2 years late is stretching all that much. After all they've pushed the Epic-S by more than that framerate wise in previous announcements.

As to 60p. I was thinking 50p @ 6k (or PAL + HDRx). I would imagine 60p would be easy @ 4.5k. Why build two cameras when you can just make one that can crop down to S35?

Epic-S was last known to be 5k 16:9 @ 60fps. (50*6*3.375)/(60*5*2.8) = 120% of the last known Epic-S specs. 20% price increase = about $14.5k. That's again too close of a price to make sense to have a separate product in a year. And (16x9)/(16x12) = 75% so if you wanted to shoot full frame 4:3 for DSMC stills you could still crank out 37 fps. Or you could easily pull 4:3 5k for anamorphic @ 48fps.

 

[Peter Moretti]

What you say is true about the last announced news from RED regarding Scarlet's specs: 2/3rds. fixed lens, ~$6K.

However, I guess I'm contending that RED always viewed that configuration as a killer indie filmmaking camera. I don't recall them touting any other use for it, although they fully well know many people will be interested in that config for other purposes like shooting events and so on. I've only ever heard the non-cinema uses for this camera touted by non-RED employees on this forum who, I think, assumed a non-cinema focus for the 8x Fixed because of the 2/3" sensor (popular in ENG, corporate and event shooting) and fixed lens.

If I'm wrong, please point me to where someone from RED talked up the non-cinema uses for this configuration.

In the meantime, check out this video of Ted at Sundance 2011 talking about the 8x Fixed Scarlet. Please watch the whole thing but pay particular attention to 1:20, 4:38, and 5:30 - 6:40.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Q7iawyDXY

I watched the video. What I was reminded of is how much penetration Red has in the indy world. So even at 2/3rd's fixed, the Scarlet might very well be chosen over S35 cameras. Put another way, if given the choice is to shoot on a Scarelt 2/3rd's fixed or an FS100, which would you rather use? The Scarlet.

But when you move up market to cams like the F3, their pull gets stronger. Not saying the Scarlet shouldn't win, but interchangeable PL glass alone could be the deciding factor. Of course for many of us, 35Mb 4:2:0 XDCAM-EX makes us want to barf in our mouths. This can be corrected with aonther ~$10K+ of firmware upgrades and external recorders... and using ghetto LUTS on the top most video track to post S-Log in our NLE... of course the thought then becomes why not just get a Red One?

 

[Jay Birch]

Canon's 1Dx was just announced... it's not looking good for Canon.

Did you even look at the specs for still shooters?... the camera is amazing and will sell by the bucket load. Canon know where their main source of income is. Just like RED cameras, even though they are DMSC, will always be more spec'd towards traditional cinema shooting.

 

[Palmer Woodrow]

Canon's 1Dx was just announced... it's not looking good for Canon. Dual DigicV (supposedly 17x the processing power of the 5D) and still only 30p 1080p in video mode. Not cool.

It's way cool if they implemented some proper downscaling instead of line-skipping. That would be a huge step forward in quality for them. This is what Canon needs to do across their SLR line, because the wretched aliasing just isn't going to be acceptable in the next generation.

 

[Paramon Ivanovich]

17 days? Hey man, I don't wanna rain on your parade, but we're not gonna last 17 hours! :smiley:

My favorite

 

[Brian Boyer]

I watched the video. What I was reminded of is how much penetration Red has in the indy world. So even at 2/3rd's fixed, the Scarlet might very well be chosen over S35 cameras. Put another way, if given the choice is to shoot on a Scarelt 2/3rd's fixed or an FS100, which would you rather use? The Scarlet.

But when you move up market to cams like the F3, their pull gets stronger. Not saying the Scarlet shouldn't win, but interchangeable PL glass alone could be the deciding factor. Of course for many of us, 35Mb 4:2:0 XDCAM-EX makes us want to barf in our mouths. This can be corrected with aonther ~$10K+ of firmware upgrades and external recorders... and using ghetto LUTS on the top most video track to post S-Log in our NLE... of course the thought becomes why not just get a Red One?

Thanks for watching the video.

Even though the initial price point of the RED ONE at $17,500 for 4K capture was a steal for high-end productions, it was still out of the price range of many low-budget, indie filmmakers. Red has always stressed they are a digital cinema company. Although you and others are right about many shooters being extremely interested in the Scarlet for its non-cinema uses, I don't think RED would jump from cinema on the high end to event shooting without seriously addressing the needs of the indie cinema shooter on the lower end. It seems to go against their core philosophy.

This is why I think the Scarlet will cover a range which satisfies the 2/3" sensor crowd and the S35 (or similar) sized crowd, like initially announced. An S35 (or similar) Scarlet should beat down the F3 at the same price point or slightly below. An S35 (or similar) Scarlet at the price point of the FS100 or slightly above would effectively kill both cameras.

I think the Epic-S is no more. Jim told the Epic-S crowd he had their backs, which is why I know an S35 (or similar) sized camera is coming. I think Scarlet will fulfill that need in some form or fashion.

We shall see on November 3. Did I just start a chant?

"We shall see on November 3"
"We shall see on November 3"

 

[Alexey Datsenko]

Canon's 1Dx costs arround 6800 USD!
Now waiting for Price for Scarlet!
The main question will be fixed Scarlet for arround 7K or only more expensive interchangable for arround 12K.
Probably only interchangable, 3K for 6000 USD is very little price.