No More Red Drives

[Jason Diamond]

Thats probably the best put argument/description I've read yet. I don't think anyone here has any animosity towards RED but merely frustration in wanting stability of kit and knowing how they'll be able to proceed in the near future...

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Guys, understand the frustration and some of it I'm sure is valid, but try not to shoot the messenger. Brent said something that was very encouraging. That new media options will be available for the R1. My dream scenario right now is 64GB CF cards. That would get me about 30 minutes of record time which puts me in the realm of Beta SP record times which for most things has always been an acceptable amount of time to record to one piece of media. For extensive interviews, concerts, etc. the RED Raid and Red Ram are good options. And the SSD options in the works sound promising as well. But for most of what I do, I could live with a 64GB solid state solution. The beauty of CF is the size or lack thereof. Perfect pocket media. As long as it is stable, can handle the bandwith, etc. I'd love this. I will buy a Red Station setup to compliment it if it gets past some of the issues we have faced in the field with 3rd party CF readers and the 16GB cards.

How to address the supply and demand issue? That's for RED to figure out behind closed doors. This list is current as of the 17th. http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7253

I hope that with the release of Epic and Scarlet that the accessories issues RED has had to face in the past become more streamlined. I have confidence it will. We may just have to be patient while RED transitions not only to a new generation of cameras but also Gen 2 of operations. Some things will have to be left behind. It will be vital to progress. I'm hoping for a well-oiled machine that keeps supply a bit ahead of demand.

In the meantime, I encourage everyone to explore all options if you are in immediate need of unavailable accessories. Keep an eye on the marketplace, watch for people selling gear, post what items you are looking for, etc. With a little elbow grease, you can probably find what you are looking for.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think what people are failing to realize here is that something serious may have happened that is out of RED's control, issues with their supply chain as an example. I'm not going to speculate beyond that because the possibilities are too numerous. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the reason we have not seen an official announcement or more information from RED is that they do not have answers to give us just yet.

I understand the gravity of the situation for some. But the reality is that there are lots of RED Drives and RED RAM units out there and this is a community that loves to help out their fellow RED shooters.

RED knows as much as anyone that 16GB CF cards are not always the right tool for the job. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath here and get a grip on their anxiety.

And yeah, I'm closing this thread. ...Then I'm going to clean house. I might re-open the thread, I might not.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

OK, I did a little house cleaning and we're back in business. While I was at it, I collected some of my thoughts on all this:

New media is coming "soon". 64GB cards are supposed to be here "late summer" as of one of the last ETA's by Jarred, so I'm hoping we're close. By close, I'm hoping within the next 60 days. Also hoping that there will be adequate quantities. There is also the 128GB SSD mag, which is a better price per GB compared to the 64GB CF cards, but it seems the SSD module for the DSMC system costs a bit too and I would think a module for the RED One would be of a similar price. I'm hesitant to quote prices as all things are subject to change -- the info is there if anyone cares to look it up in the announcements. It will be interesting to see how the SSD modules work with the RED One. Moving forward, the RED-Drive and RED-RAM are not fast enough for Epic, neither are the 16GB CF cards.

Production has been slow lately for Drives and RAMs and I think it's a safe bet that RED will have new media out before they can chew through the existing back-log of orders and that could be one good reason for no more new orders being taken. Anyone who has been paying attention or doing their due-dilligence in full for any pre-production right now should be aware of the existing back-orders and lead times to get RED Drives. Based on Brent's comments, it seems that the backlog and slow production are due to supplier issues. There has to be a point where RED must decide when it's not worth it to qualify a new supplier to keep production levels up when it's for a product that will soon be replaced with something better. Even if it means a temporary lull in new orders and production.

I could go on... Actually I started to, but don't see the point. Let's keep the discussion on-track and civilized, lest the thread be closed permanently. My banning finger is a bit itchy too and I already have a few people locked in my targeting system... 'nuff said.

 

[Adam S]

Wow, you took out 4pages... that's quiet the spring cleaning... I thought this was a very respectful and productive thread. No personal attacks or anything, certainly not 4pgs worth.

Customers were voicing their frustrations with the situation and I thought that's what the complaint department section was for....

I guess we can't voice our frustrations, even here in the complaint section, or the fickle finger of fate might ban us...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Define "pages". It was less than a full "page" worth of posts with my settings. I think I'm at 50 posts per "page". Yes, there were personal attacks, and I removed them. The only posts I removed were the ones that had nothing constructive to say, were drifting off-topic, or made a direct personal attack or comment. There was a lot of noise in here. I kept all the good stuff, all the relevant stuff, including most of the complaints that didn't get personal.

So that said, do you have something constructive to add?

 

[Adam S]

I only have 10 posts per page, how do you change that?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Click on "User CP" in the top-left area of the site. This takes you to the control panel and then choose to Edit Options. One of the options on the list that comes up is the number of posts to display per page. Looks like 40 per page is the maximum, makes it much nicer to read through the forums, IMO. I suppose it's on 10 by default as that would result in less data being transmitted with each page load.

Anyway, let's keep it on-topic here. And I just want to reiterate that was all my cleaning was about. This thread was headed downhill fast. It was not an attempt to remove any concerns or impose any censorship or anything of that nature. I fully understand people are concerned, frustrated and even angry. Hopefully Brent will come back or someone else from RED will chime in soon, but I fear the restless natives may have chased Brent away from this thread for good...

 

[Jay Gannon]

Define "pages". It was less than a full "page" worth of posts with my settings. I think I'm at 50 posts per "page". Yes, there were personal attacks, and I removed them. The only posts I removed were the ones that had nothing constructive to say, were drifting off-topic, or made a direct personal attack or comment. There was a lot of noise in here. I kept all the good stuff, all the relevant stuff, including most of the complaints that didn't get personal.

So that said, do you have something constructive to add?

Erm Jeff the post of mine that you removed was not in anyway abusive, I understand why you removed it in context of the conversation, but well..I dont know how it was construed as offensive or ranty. It was a polite observation.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jay,

You are right that it was removed, given the the entire context of the thread. A handful of posts were removed that were not directly offensive or themselves a problem, but they either strayed from the core message of the thread, could be confusing based on information that has been confirmed now, or instigated negative responses from subsequent posters. I've had two individuals PM me in regards to their posts that were removed and I'm taking a closer look at those now. Edit>> I have reinstated one of those posts.

Anyway, this was not my intent either as the thread is now turning into a discussion of the cleaning.

Sometimes myself and the other mods will toss a lot of posts that start to shift the topic of discussion within a thread or that instigate negative responses down the line, in the process of pulling those negative responses. The goal is more about keeping the original train of discussion on-track when dealing with highly volatile subjects.

 

[Nino Del Padre]

We shipped our drive back to Red in July of 2009 after problems on a shot in Africa. We have still yet to get it back. Not saying its RED's fault entirely as we have not been following up with them often enough. Just an FYI. I am told they are working on a resolution.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

July of 2009??? Seriously? Not a typo? Over a year?

Please elaborate.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Stuart English]

RED DRIVE

RED DRIVE

We shipped our drive back to Red in July of 2009 after problems on a shot in Africa. We have still yet to get it back.

A delay like that is not acceptable. Who is working on that for you at RED?

 

[Brent Carter]

A delay like that is not acceptable. Who is working on that for you at RED?

I can clear this up quickly. We shipped, carrier had an error on their end, and they never notified us. The first we heard that it was never delivered is when Nino just recently reached out to us. Sean is taking care of him.

BC

 

[Stuart English]

RED DRIVE

RED DRIVE

There you go Nino. Hopefully you will get your repaired RED DRIVE back soon.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Since my previous post was deleted as part of idiot noise, allow me to rephrase, this time minus an attempt at jocularity.

I have a R1 and a RED-DRIVE. I encountered my first dropped frames a few weeks ago while both the camera and the drive were sitting solidly on a sturdy OConnor tripod. Reading this thread got me thinking.

A hypothetical: Let's assume the Drive becomes an End-of-Life product within a year or so. While other RED owners are happily upgrading to whatever cool media tech RED comes up with next, I'm unemployed, broke and unable to afford the new gizmos. Then one day my RED-DRIVE gives up the ghost. At worst, RED tells me they're unable to fix the Drive for whatever reason (no spare parts available, for example). At best, I'm told it'll cost $500 to fix the Drive and I manage to scrape the money together.

But let's assume the worst (I'm a realist rather than a pessimist). I'm stuck with a dead Drive, RED can't fix it and I can't afford the fancy new gear. My first instinct would be to fix it myself by replacing spinning media with fast SSD drives, for example. But as we all know, that wouldn't get me very far.

My question to RED: when the Drive becomes an unsupported and/or unsupportable EOL product, would you consider allowing your customers to replace the HDDs with something else... without crippling resolution and frame rate?

Maybe after asking the customer to sign a piece of paper saying the customer is well aware of the risks and won't come crying to RED if something goes wrong...?

 

[Elsie N]

Petri, I probably understand your situation as well as anybody here because I have been in a budget squeeze for a couple of years and am only now beginning to see a little light through the wormhole.

So with my being able to look at things from your perspective, I'm thinking that the $500 you are talking about may buy you a working used drive should the need for it arise. The reason I think this is because there are beau coup drives in the wild, and when whatever is coming gets here, it will be better than drives. It will be usable on R-1s and thus, those who can afford to upgrade to the newer faster media will do so. This will make their current drive obsolete in their minds and many will simply put them up for sale. The new media may very well make your situation better, and not worse.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS: Maybe RED could consider taking old drives in on trade for the new media and resell them as refurbished.... making the worries about a drive shortage much ado about nothing.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Elsie, thank you; others selling their Drives to make way for new gear didn't occur to me. It's certainly an option worth keeping in mind, although I have to add that I'm slightly wary of buying used hard drives.

A spinning platter drive might have a lifespan of, let's say 5000 hours for argument's sake, and if the previous owner has already run it for 4000 hours... I could be back in square one sooner than expected, and $500 poorer. After all, I don't think anyone can sell their used RED-DRIVE with full warranty so purchasing a used Drive will always be a gamble of some proportions.

But like I said, it's certainly an option to keep in mind.

 

[Elsie N]

Elsie, thank you; others selling their Drives to make way for new gear didn't occur to me. It's certainly an option worth keeping in mind, although I have to add that I'm slightly wary of buying used hard drives.

A spinning platter drive might have a lifespan of, let's say 5000 hours for argument's sake, and if the previous owner has already run it for 4000 hours... I could be back in square one sooner than expected, and $500 poorer. After all, I don't think anyone can sell their used RED-DRIVE with full warranty so purchasing a used Drive will always be a gamble of some proportions.

But like I said, it's certainly an option to keep in mind.

Good points about buying used, and I don't think RED wants to get in the refurbished drive business. Another option might be that for a fee, RED inspects the drive in an intermediate process between buyer and seller. The results are then passed on to both buyer and seller. If RED deems the drive to be in good shape or if repairs are done, then buyer can purchase a short warranty. Just some other thoughts.

 

[Petri Teittinen]

Good points about buying used, and I don't think RED wants to get in the refurbished drive business.

I don't think so either. Doesn't sound like good business to me.

Another option might be that for a fee, RED inspects the drive in an intermediate process between buyer and seller. The results are then passed on to both buyer and seller. If RED deems the drive to be in good shape or if repairs are done, then buyer can purchase a short warranty. Just some other thoughts.

I'll do my best to shoot this one down as gently as possible

Let's face it, mechanical magnetic media with spinning platters sucks. They don't like G-forces, magnetic fields or even sitting still for long periods of time. They're damn fragile, in other words. All that shipping between RED, buyer and seller can have nasty results. Not necessarily, of course, but there's always the risk.

Also, looking at it from my empty-walleted perspective, shipping, inspection and added warranty aren't free. RED won't do it for nothing as that's definitely not good business. And if the Drive pops round to USA, I'm also looking at import taxes and VAT. All those costs will pile up and the Drive might end up costing a heck of a lot more than initially expected.

Yeah, I'm cheap but there's no alternative when one is looking at a possibility of losing one's house.