New Sony PXW-FS7 4k camera

[Matt Ryan]

About Sony having the look Im not sure about that.

Have you seen F55 stuff ...seems overly sharpened, overly saturated.....it's the Sony TV look. Maybe Ive been looking at poorly graded/shot stuff but the F55 is not a great look imo. However the F65 is another camera entirely.

My guess is it's just the content you have seen. There is not much of a difference between the two (F55 is better or the low end slightly while the F65 is slightly better on the high end)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kM83ImFfTIs

You can check out comparison files here as well: http://cinematography.net/UWE/index.html

Sony cameras are solid, well supported, are usually an all in one solution with all the "broadcast" attachments for accessories out of the box. They have gotten better recently by offering upgrades, firmware updates, and lower pricing on their cameras. The F5/55 has taken over the tv/doc world at least out here in LA. They have a hard time keeping them on the shelves at rental houses. So obviously they are doing something right...

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

New Sony 4k

http://www.pro.sony.eu/pro/lang/en/eu/product/PXW-FS7K/

http://blog.sony.com/press/sony-unv...-4k-xdcam-camera-with-a-super-35-cmos-sensor/


some footage:

http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/

The more I see other 4k cameras the more I like the Red!

 

[Christof Paul]

when the camera leaked a couple of days ago the price mentioned was 10k, now they are saying 8K which means street price is even lower and the package with the newly announced zoom might be the even sweeter deal.
sony has been killing in the still camera field and now is the biggest sensor manufacturer (incl for nikon and all medium format backs). its funny but in a way the are now where canon was a couple of years ago (except that canon never made sensors for anyone else) and lets not forget that canon just had to slash their entire still lens line prices.
for now compression is keeping epic and dragon ahead or at least unique enough to make sense, but storage is getting faster and cheaper and at some point that issue becomes less important.
the ursa still has the advantage of the swappable sensor but with sony making the best sensors and by keeping their prices low that might not be such a big deal in a year or 2. 6k sensor for ursa for 3500$ or a new 6k sony fs8 for 8000$ again?
i am just not sure how red can play a role in all this. if dragon would have turned out to be THE camera to beat, things might be rosier. raising the price for the dragon upgrade the day this sony is announced sounds a little strange now.

 

[Doug Beatty]

Fortunately for RED, Epic (X or Dragon) still kind of makes logical sense because of its resolution/fps advantages, but Scarlet (X or Dragon) is needlessly being put in a position where it just isn't a financially sound competitor. If Scarlet-X brain was $3500 ($8k shootable), it'd be a gate-way camera again (leading to Scarlet-Dragon upgrades or Epic upgrades). As it stands, however, it's a bit of money pit.

*Getting a little OT here, but this is on my mind*

Agreed, and come December 1st, I'm guessing there's more to the pricing change in Dragon upgrades than RED is willing to divulge at this point.

12/1, we may see a Scarlet X brain retail for $2.5K, and if that happens we'll probably see Epic MX brains come down to $12K to blow the FS7 and whatever Canon has up their sleeves out of the water. My feelings are that RED hit the jackpot with their trade-in program and that they will keep it open at $9.5K to go Scarlet X to Epic X. Scarlet X is nice to keep around, as it's the gateway camera.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Epic X Dragons up for sale in the store for $24.5K around the same time around the holiday season. That pricing would fall in line with the $12.5K Epic Upgrade cost.

Just upgrading to Epic X from Scarlet, the new pricing structure would be a bit of a blow to me, but it's inevitable. I regret not pulling the trigger as soon as I could, but the money just wasn't there. I'd just prefer not to be kicked in the teeth by Red changing course and opening a Scarlet Dragon to Epic Dragon trade in program.

The warning everyone should heed is that your Scarlet X better not sit on your shelf past 12/1. Get your money out of it, whether selling or trading in, ASAP because the clock is ticking.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Lots of good objective commentary here. Maybe Sony will displace Arri in double-quick time - if that happens, RED can still be a strong number 2. I mean, really, you´ve got three options for serious work, basically: Sony, RED and film. I never saw the point in Arri or Canon digital movie cameras. That´s how I see it as someone outside the business.

Another peripheral point, perhaps not so important: the Scarlet X is a DSMC camera. The Sony is not.

 

[Mike P.]

Someone else mentioned it in the Scarlet-Dragon recon thread, but the BT Scarlet-Dragon price was $11,500, whereas the *upgrade-only* price come Dec. 1st is $12,500... Seems kind of weak, especially given RED's byline of "what other companies offer upgrades?" Truth is other companies (okay, only Sony as this point) are offering out-of-the-box shootable cameras for less than RED's upgrade price and both sensors perform similarly, all things considered.

For me, an existing Scarlet owner, that's a tough sell. I'm not gonna drop $9500 (or worse, $12500) for a ~14+stop 5k dragon sensor, when $8k will get me a ~14+stops 4k sensor *and an entirely shootable second camera*. For renting it makes less sense -- you'd make more money renting two FS7 kits for $350/day, than one Epic-Dragon for $600/day (less for Scarlet-Dragon). At this point, in terms of RED, for me the best option would be to get a second Scarlet-X brain 6 months from now when they're $2500-3500, and use all of my extra peripherals to make a barebones shootable b-cam.

 

[Mike Garrick]

@ Mike P.

On some threads its being reported its the same sensor as fS700 12 stops of DR others F55 sensor so who knows at the moment.

2ndly apparently this camera is 15k for 4K which is what MX Scarlet does right now. Agreed if your buying a new Scarlet MX then it raises questions but for existing owners you can either spend 9.5K to upgrade, 12.5K later to upgrade to 5K, doing nothing & shoot 4K or spend 15k plus to buy a sony that then can shoot 4K (albeit with other extras )

P.S Thanks Matt for the F55/65 comparisons different to what I'm seeing on the small screen @ home so maybe experience issues.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

The Sony cam is supposed to be in the 8k range with internal 10 bit 4.2.2 4k XAVC at up to 60fps. 180fps for 1080p.
Its also announced having 14 stops and a base ISO of 2000.
So you have a fully optioned 4k, plus shoulder mount, grip and a oled viewfinder for about 8k.
You can add 2k for the unit that sends out raw and another 2k for an odissey Q7.
Thats 12k for 4k raw and 8k for 4k xavc.
Not advertising, just to inform you, really.
Still love the Scarlet.
Cheers

 

[Mike P.]

Touche. I didn't realize there were conflicting reports (though this is the first I've heard it could be the FS700 sensor -- I was under the impression that it was the same tech as the A7s -- 14stops and 2000ISO)... I can't see them going to a sensor that's older/worse than the A7s or F5/F55... It's just my opinion, but it doesn't seem likely (though stranger things have happened).

Sony's own blog says "less than $10k" for the body (which has everything built-in except media, battery, and lenses) and everyone from IBC is saying MSRP of $8k, so I'm not being too optimistic leaning towards the $8k number. Where have you read $15k? That'd likely be with the R5 AND ProRes V-mount.... Which would still be a better deal given all the inclusions of the camera body... (Again, does anyone know if the R5 is inline on the body, or can only be tethered somehow?)

And in any case, regardless of what the FS7 ends up being, this puts RED in a "reactionary camp", not a "proactive" one. And the problem with that is, by the time the dust settles, it'll likely already be too late. In other words, I don't see too much occurring to make the Scarlet (RED's entry-level gateway camera) sell more units, which means the only play left is to lower the price to a more competitive level. Prolonging that (which is what RED seems to be doing) will likely just cause more people to go elsewhere...

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

Folks, an important detail. If you are shooting PL, the mounting solution is pretty weak. Emount adapter to PL (3rd party). There is still a place for the F5/55. I also am quite certain that none of these cameras being discussed are going to kill the Alexa in terms of DR, build, or market segments.

 

[Mike Garrick]

Here's a price In UK yes its bloated European pricing just for the camera & the one E lense.

http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2014/09/12/new-sony-fs-7-6400/

& then there the add ons..... always add ons which take the price up or the features down like recording 180 fps but only in HD. Like 4K is not 4K but UHD for now. Like new lenses, like external recorders for recording HFS raw , like batteries Blah blah....

How many e mount or for that matter a mount lenses has everyone got hanging out in your cupboards ?

P.S. No PL mount unlike the F55/5 and no global shutter

P.S.S not rubbishing this camera I like it, I just don't believe in marketing hype & theres a tonne of it on this release....so go into it with your eyes open.

 

[Matt Ryan]

There are a plethora of E mount to PL mount adapters. I've been using them on my Nex 6 & 7 for years. Plenty tough enough of a solution. I don't doubt that someone will modify the mounts to attach to the camera by a cheese plate or something for added rigidity (Like the recent WC PL mount for the a7s).

http://www.adorama.com/ZOCLMPLES.html?cvosrc=cse.google.ZOCLMPLES&cvo_cid=38589028051&gclid=Cj0KEQjws8qgBRCLp-aploLbqcQBEiQAm0rD55ZXbCQrHCXO7zbQ-0F4RcRj96Ycduo3CdIfDtHKA4YaAmhx8P8HAQ

http://www.vocas.com/accessories/sony-e-mount-to-pl-adapter-including-15mm-support

http://www.denz-deniz.com/en/premium-products/pl-adapter-for-sony-e-mount/

The E mount is awesome too if you want to use Canon or Nikon lenses on it, again with a simple adapter and you can even use a metabones and get FF field of view and an extra stop of exposure.

I'm about 99% sure this is the sensor from the F5 as it's specs are identical. 4096x2160, 14 stops DR, Native 2000ISO, SN ratio of 57db... So it's most likely the same sensor, which is something Sony has done many times repurposing sensors in new lower cost models. It's a great way for them to continue profits on an already completed sensor.

PS. Here it is built with the adapter and the with V Mount:

Anyone else feel like this is going to take over the Amira market? I think this will be used mainly for broadcast, reality tv, docs, etc.

 

[jake blackstone]

If only Sony could spent a little time on better naming their cameras.
PXW-FS7? WTF???

 

[Mike Garrick]

Imo. Sony knows TV. It's the Arri of broadcast and this camera is targeted squarely at TV production.

If I was on a "factual narrative" project this one of the cameras I would consider for the job .

@ Jake LOL typical Sony with their model numbers.

 

[Matt Ryan]

If only Sony could spent a little time on better naming their cameras.
PXW-FS7? WTF???

Agreed, the name is horrible...

 

[Clayton Burkhart]

There are a plethora of E mount to PL mount adapters. I've been using them on my Nex 6 & 7 for years. Plenty tough enough of a solution. I don't doubt that someone will modify the mounts to attach to the camera by a cheese plate or something for added rigidity (Like the recent WC PL mount for the a7s).

http://www.adorama.com/ZOCLMPLES.html?cvosrc=cse.google.ZOCLMPLES&cvo_cid=38589028051&gclid=Cj0KEQjws8qgBRCLp-aploLbqcQBEiQAm0rD55ZXbCQrHCXO7zbQ-0F4RcRj96Ycduo3CdIfDtHKA4YaAmhx8P8HAQ

http://www.vocas.com/accessories/sony-e-mount-to-pl-adapter-including-15mm-support

http://www.denz-deniz.com/en/premium-products/pl-adapter-for-sony-e-mount/

The E mount is awesome too if you want to use Canon or Nikon lenses on it, again with a simple adapter and you can even use a metabones and get FF field of view and an extra stop of exposure.

I'm about 99% sure this is the sensor from the F5 as it's specs are identical. 4096x2160, 14 stops DR, Native 2000ISO, SN ratio of 57db... So it's most likely the same sensor, which is something Sony has done many times repurposing sensors in new lower cost models. It's a great way for them to continue profits on an already completed sensor.

PS. Here it is built with the adapter and the with V Mount:

Anyone else feel like this is going to take over the Amira market? I think this will be used mainly for broadcast, reality tv, docs, etc.

Thqnks for pointing those out Matt, but of course every one of those represents another 800 USD on top of the base price. They are going to have to have rail support because the camera mount will likely be too flimsy to sustain the PL mount alone. I like the WC idea, but suspect that this camera would need need some kind of riser support for a cheese plate, though perhaps an ET Armor type solution could help a lot in terms of ergonmy (more money!). Never been a fan of the C300 style handle viewfinder thing's.

 

[Matt Ryan]

Thqnks for pointing those out Matt, but of course every one of those represents another 800 USD on top of the base price. They are going to have to have rail support because the camera mount will likely be too flimsy to sustain the PL mount alone. I like the WC idea, but suspect that this camera would need need some kind of riser support for a cheese plate, though perhaps an ET Armor type solution could help a lot in terms of ergonmy (more money!). Never been a fan of the C300 style handle viewfinder thing's.

Keep in mind though that if we're talking lens mount prices, RED's PL mount is $2,000 and even the AL Canon/Nikon mounts are $700-$800. So this isn't much of a stretch. I also wouldn't be surprised if Sony has their own solution coming soon.

Out of curiosity, what did everyone do mount wise with the fs100 and the fs700? Those had the same E Mount as this so I'm curios what everyone was doing lens wise.

 

[Mike S. M.]

RED is solid but very heavy for doc work, or solo shooting. This Sony camera fills that gap perfectly together with what appears to be a great sensor and maybe without the crop factor of the RED.

The sensor is the same as in the old FS700. And what do you mean crop factor of the RED? The FS7 doesn't have a full frame sensor, if this is what you were thinking. It is S35. It's the FS700 sensor.

 

[Matt Ryan]

The sensor is the same as in the old FS700. And what do you mean crop factor of the RED? The FS7 doesn't have a full frame sensor, if this is what you were thinking. It is S35. It's the FS700 sensor.

It DOES NOT use the fs700 sensor! It uses the F5 sensor. It has identical sensor specs to the F5. The FS700 is not native 2000ISO (fs700 is 500ISO), is not 16bit data to 12bit linear raw (fs700 is only 8 bit-12 bit external), does not have 14 stops of dynamic range(12 stops, tested as 11 usable), and does not have a SN ratio of 57db. F5 Specs. The native ISO increase should be the first indication this is not the same sensor as the FS700... Sony lists the FS700 as a 12 stop dynamic range cameracomparison chart at the bottom and a native ISO of 500)https://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/show/highend/pdf/NEX-FS700_Camera_2013_X1A.pdf

"The FS7 uses a sensor similar to that of the F5"
http://www.dvinfo.net/article/acquisition/sonyxdcam/first-look-sony-pxw-fs7-l-s-s-shoulder-mount-camcorder-part-1.html

 

[Daniel Stilling]

Looking at the footage, where numbers don't matter, it looks very vanilla to me. Even MX sensors look much better than the footage that was posted by Sony. To me it looks like a refinement on the FS700. A logical step forward for Sony, but really it's nothing to write home about...