Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

New Fast Prime Set WOW

Fine, so the smaller front element doesn't seem to have any 3D shooters excited. Boo hoo to that!

Agreed on S35 not becoming obsolete, but I'll take a FF35 Red with FF35 lenses which lets me select whatever the heck I want! :)

Tom, isn't the widest FF35 super speed ever something like a 21mm or so?
 
Just to chime in,

the fastest FF35 wide angle lens would be the 21mm leica summilux at f1.4, and the matching S35 lens would be the 14mm masterprime at f1.4.

those two lenses have the same field of view on the wide side of the frame on their respective widest possible frame size

could that be a physical limitation?

edit:

just a quick calculation resulted that in order to get the angle of a 50mm lens on S35 you would have to put a 75mm lens on a FF35 sized sensor. and we all know how much less DOF a 75mm lens has compared to a 50mm lens... can't see that happening for regular narrative work.
 
XiaoSu Han said:
Just to chime in,

the fastest FF35 wide angle lens would be the 21mm leica summilux at f1.4, and the matching S35 lens would be the 14mm masterprime at f1.4.

those two lenses have the same field of view on the wide side of the frame on their respective widest possible frame size

could that be a physical limitation?

edit:

just a quick calculation resulted that in order to get the angle of a 50mm lens on S35 you would have to put a 75mm lens on a FF35 sized sensor. and we all know how much less DOF a 75mm lens has compared to a 50mm lens... can't see that happening for regular narrative work.
Click to expand...

Anamorphic FF35 has shallow DOF similar to FF35, and people have been shooting gorgeous narrative films (a lot of Oscar winners) on anamorphic 35mm for decades. Trust me, trust Jim, trust all the young shooters coming up right now up who will never have shot on anything other than FF35 "Vista Vision" ... FF35mm is coming soon, and it's coming to stay.

Once everyone here gets a chance to shoot 6K RAW motion on Monstro, and sees the results, all of these questions will be answered, and there will be no looking back.

As for the limitation of wide, fast lenses, there does seem to be some wall that is being hit up against. There have been rumors of some kind of f/2 ultra-wide-angle FF35 coming out from Canon.
 
disclaimer: this is mainly from a narrative fiction feature filmmaker standpoint

DP's nowadays already decide between anamorphic and s35 and the majority still gets shot at S35, because there isn't always the option to light up one more stop (e.g. the wide shots in "no country for old men" that were lit with a couple of muscos already) in order to achieve the same DOF. If DP's already steer away from anamorphic 35 why should they go for FF35? Why has Vista Vision never taken off?

What I don't get is why they aren't trying to get 6K out of the same chip size. Is bigger really better? (for narrative work.)

Also, cinemas have been using their film projectors for decades, they are supposed to have 2K projectors as standard now, some 4K. all 4K in 2 years. 6K in another 5. don't know of any modular beamer yet.

How's that gonna work?
 
XiaoSu Han said:
disclaimer: this is mainly from a narrative fiction feature filmmaker standpoint

DP's nowadays already decide between anamorphic and s35 and the majority still gets shot at S35, because there isn't always the option to light up one more stop (e.g. the wide shots in "no country for old men" that were lit with a couple of muscos already) in order to achieve the same DOF. If DP's already steer away from anamorphic 35 why should they go for FF35? Why has Vista Vision never taken off?

What I don't get is why they aren't trying to get 6K out of the same chip size. Is bigger really better? (for narrative work.)

Also, cinemas have been using their film projectors for decades, they are supposed to have 2K projectors as standard now, some 4K. all 4K in 2 years. 6K in another 5. don't know of any modular beamer yet.

How's that gonna work?
Click to expand...

As we have seen with the ISO ratings on Canon, Nikon and now Red's new sensor (Snappy!), sensitivity ratings are skyrocketing on all new digital cameras, so having to light up a stop will not be needed.

Is bigger that much better? Oh yes! Compare stills from a Canon 5D Mark II to a 7D. They are not even close... the FF35 smokes the APS-C sensor.

The idea of going to a 6K camera is that you can get a very clean and pristine 4K finish. 4K display is the future, but to acquire pristine 4K, you really need a 5K - 6K Bayer sensor.
 
Thanks Tom that makes more sense to me.

So instead of ISO 320 and f1.4 we'll just use ISO 800 and f2.0 - FF35 f2.0 are going to be the new superspeeds :) - I think though that the MkII smokes the 7D because of more things than just the sensor size.

So my guess is that by increasing the sensor size a 6K image can aquired much faster technically than getting 6K out of a S35 sensor (see CPU development, same size as ever, more performance every quarter of a year) - thats why they're pushing towards FF35.

I'd be happy if we'd settle on 4K displays for the next 50 years.
 
XiaoSu Han said:
I'd be happy if we'd settle on 4K displays for the next 50 years.
Click to expand...

I think that 4K will be the gold standard for display for a long time to come, because it is basically the upper theoretical limit of all the 35mm TV shows, movies, music videos, etc, shot over the last 100 years.

Sorry for the thread derail, guys!

Back to the lenses.
 
Being able to easily stick nets in the front is nice.
 
ooh -- titanium -- that's so hot right now.
 
4k clean digital it's where it's going, no question.
What's in front to get that is another thing.
It'll get funky in the world of glass in the next years to come.
One thing for sure is that I am not investing my little money today in nothing less then 43mm...
I may settle on compact primes after all.
 
Michael has really been under siege to divulge the name of these lenses. He let slip the information to me last week, and I've decided I'll go ahead and share it with everyone.



Michael told me these are "Hot Rod" lenses.

Sorry Michael.

You really did say that :smile:
 
hahaha, poor Michael.

First he got hosed down by Jim, then by me to reveal "how sharp is sharp", then Mitch delivered good fun at his expense, then people gave him hard time the lenses don't cover VistaVision and now Illya's classic. LOL

That's too funny.

I hope you are not discouraged just as yet, Michael. :001_smile:

I must say I thoroughly enjoy this thread. LOL
 
Michael Panfeld said:
Right, just like typewriters weren't quickly rendered obsolete with the advent of computers and word processing software.
Click to expand...

so then, tell me oh wise man, how long will it be until we are all shooting FF35, and no one is using a set of:

- Cooke S4s,
- Cooke 5-series
- Cooke Speed Panchros
- ARRI Master Primes
- Angenieux Zooms
- Ultra Primes
- RED Pro Primes
- These new 'Mystery' lenses
- etc. etc. etc.

Seriously......how long? (note: each of those sets of lenses costs a LITTLE bit more than a typewriter)
 
Well first of all I need to define "no one." Up until the last year Stephen King still banged out his novels on a typewriter even though the world abandoned typewriters nearly two decades ago. I have two 1960s vintage Fords even though those have not been made for 40 years. So there will always be a used market for existing lenses.

That said, its going to depend on a few big picture things such as how fast do the electronics manufacturers roll out QuadHD TVs, what the world economic recovery will be like, whether the Monstro sensor achieves the dynamic range its currently spec'd at, and when will the Monstro sensor be released? That said, I'd ball park it at about 7 years after the Monstro comes out with a +/- couple of years depending on those big picture questions.
 
Chris Parker said:
so then, tell me oh wise man, how long will it be until we are all shooting FF35, and no one is using a set of:

- Cooke S4s,
- Cooke 5-series
- Cooke Speed Panchros
- ARRI Master Primes
- Angenieux Zooms
- Ultra Primes
- RED Pro Primes
- These new 'Mystery' lenses
- etc. etc. etc.

Seriously......how long? (note: each of those sets of lenses costs a LITTLE bit more than a typewriter)
Click to expand...

You missed a few, such as the new Fujinon zooms. I'm with you on this, Chris.

Other than shooting (celestial) stars, I think S35 format is here to stay. We may see 12k sensors in the future and sharper lenses, but I see no reason to shoot larger formats for main-stream cinema.
 
if anything is going to knock out S35, ironically, it will be the 2/3'' mini-primes, if 3D gains the big traction it is supposed to...shallow DOF wil be out of fashion.

how's that for opening a can of worms...

I don't actually buy this, just offering a contrarian view...what I do believe is that the future is multiplicity.
 
Well certainly 2/3 Scarlet is going to be very ideal for many 3D productions, IMO. I don't know if mini primes are useful for 3D, though, if they cannot be controled electronically. I guess that will depend on the rig.
 
But you can put external motors on Mini Primes, the question is if you are satisfied with the optical properties and resolution you'd get from the lenses on a 2/3" sensor.

Meryem, I am sure you didn't mean DOF will go out of style like we'd be going 1/3"-like, unless you really are as fed up with the fad as I was a little while back. :) Still I wanted to mention that OOF and 3D works very well IMO. Maybe you meant ultra thin DOF? Still I think it does work, but maybe only if achieved with a wide lens and a close subject with the BG being very far away?

I'd say imagine 3D will in fact become popular, but only as soon as we start seeing more films like Avatar which carefully use the layer instead of abusing it. But ATM even Avatar could have done 3D in a little more of an organic way IMHumbleO.

Now about FF35, why would we need to go Vistavision?

Are people really going to tell? Maybe if we do get 4k all over and 2k theaters go out of style, which would be nice with 1080p at home, and we could only get a perfect 4k out of a FF35 sensor. However that already doesn't seem to be the case, entirely. S35 Epic will give us 5k, which might be about 0.5k give or take from giving us that "real" 4k after debayering and what not, from what I understand. So while I am no post house I think that means that S35 Mysterium will give us about 85% + of what higher resolution FF35 sensors would give us for a 4k finish, right?

The 6k+ FF35 sensors would provide the added resolution needed for the "true" 4k, and maybe a little more of that saturated richness from downsampling a bigger image... but very VERY little %-wise, right? 5k... 6k... what is that? at most a 20% increase in resolution? Are audiences going to jump out of their seats from it? Wouldn't exposure, composition, placement, movement, performance, color, audio, score, timing, and everything else be exponentially more important that a resolution increase so small that we'd have a tough time making sure we are picking the right one upon non-side-by-side comparison? Or is the difference much bigger than I anticipate?

And an other question, do the two streams in 3D make perceived resolution higher than the resolution of the camera (one of them) being used? I would assume they do, just not proportionally to the total resolution, but perhaps enough to make 5k 3D "enough for 4k finish"??

Oops... sorry about all those. I try to stfu as much as possible, but sometimes the questions in my head win.
 
The future of 3D will not depend on double camera setup. controlling, pulling focus and data management X2 makes no sense. It will be a single lens/sensor setup that will feel just the same as todays video-cams.
As of today I agree with Meryem. 2/3 may take over for a while, but increased ISO will change the game very soon.
We'll look at those 3D gizmos in 5-10 years with a big smile:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top