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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB13- Scarlet Upgrade Program

Brian Merlen said:
I almost bought the fs700 over Scarlet, but considering the lack of features and rapid depreciation its too risky... My current Sony is worthless at BH trade in value, 0 in two years! Good luck with that business model!!! Its got two years of accident coverage but no value. I feel safer with the Scarlet, and am quite happy. Cant wait to upgrade. PS when you add up the off board recorder price coupled with the depreciation, I am not sure the Sony is that great a camera. I mean they rerelease the same thing every 6 months. Its kind of screwed up
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I think, personally you made the right decision. (FS700 user)
 
Brian Merlen said:
red team please answer me one question... when you can


whats the max fps for scarlet dragon at 1k ws (tentatively as in I know things change)....thanks!
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I doubt 1k ws will be available on the scarlet dragon.
1k ws was kind of unnatural (but very welcome) part of scarlet-x designed to deliver on the original promised specs of 120fps
(yes - everything subject to change ... so RED could have just left us w/o the 120fps option on scarlet-x, but it's not a good PR if things change so the specs get worse - RED will always push for changes to make things better)

So I believe 1k ws will not be available on the dragon
 
Seems to me like a few rapid posters in here is just crazy focused on making a slightly better deal than everyone else. Come on, get focused and look at what you got/will get, for a very VERY good price.
Oh, and all those accessories are just as good now. They endure, and they will function after future upgrades as well.

If you're comparing whatever to the quality you get with any red camera and don't like what you're seeing. You are probably not skilled enough at what you're doing. Cinematography will never be easy, but it's never been easier than using a Red camera.
 
dennys bisogno said:
AS I ponder which way to go still. I put the numbers (table) together to help me visualize. In deciding who has the edge, I make some assumption so PLEASE feel free to disagree with my conclusions. PS: I still not completely sure, although definitely leaning the Epic route :beer:

image.jpg
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first of all thanks for this, but i see discrepancies between this chart (what is on red.com) and what Phil has listed in the Red Quick reference guide, which i do see was based on an update from 5/9/2012, have they increased fps on the epic since version 3.2.8? and if so are the above the current numbers?
 
Just made a small change to correct FR at 5FF - but still based on what I see in RED.com
 
Good chart. I made an impulse decision to get my spot in line and went with the proven and much loved Epic MX. More powerful brain and upgradeable again vs Scarlet Dragon.
 
Bob Gundu said:
I went epic-x route for now and then update to dragon later. Thank you RED :-)
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I am paying close attention to people whom I follow their work to influence my decision - No worries Bob, I will not hold you liable if I change mind after pulling the trigger - My lack of "cojones" is not your fault :lol:
 
Oh Geez! Seriously, Not too long ago I almost traded my scarlet plus 20K for an Epic-X with a fellow user. I look at this deal from RED as a no-brainer, no matter which way you go. I figure I'll might as well use an Epic-X while the Dragon works out any kinks (if there are any of course). Win- Win for everyone.

dennys bisogno said:
I am paying close attention to people whom I follow their work to influence my decision - No worries Bob, I will not hold you liable if I change mind after pulling the trigger - My lack of "cojones" is not your fault :lol:
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Noah,

I've owned / operated almost every Sony Broadcast camera. As an example, I bought the F900 7 years ago for $65,000. It made 4 times it's ROI. It was great for the time.
Today, it's worth $2,000...Maybe. I have plenty other examples of this. Which is yet another reason why RED's upgrade path is the best deal out there. Cameras always depreciate.
But, RED looks out for it's customers in the best way possible.
 
Jannard said:
This is the most twisted logic I have ever read...

Jim
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It's certainly possible I'm mistaken on a couple (or all) points :)

I suppose I am expressing my fears more than my actual experiences since I have not actually sold a RED camera. I was thinking more in terms of the RED ONE which at first may seem an good case study since we have seen its life from from inception to EOL but in reality is probably quite an inappropriate analogy to the DSMC line, since it's value dropped from ~$22k down to $4k in a few years but only for those who did not take the generous upgrade paths offered by RED which in a way discounts one of the most valuable aspects of a RED camera.

Also my experience with depreciation is of course somewhat anecdotal so it can be difficult to compare different cameras in very different investment classes. It may make sense that higher priced cameras fall in value faster and the actual value of the depreciation is certainly higher even if it is in the same proportion, and RED Scarlet is still the most expensive camera I have owned. So you can imagine why I may over-analyze and worry when my investment in scarlet is about to double...
 
Noah Yuan-Vogel said:
I don't knoe which sony camera you had but I've had many cameras and found thay if you buy smart cameras hold their value reasonably well. I dont know of any popular cameras that depreciated to nothing in 2 years or even 5 years, so perhaps you are exaggerating, but bh trade in is hardly a good indication of market value...
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If you bought a Sony F65 last year, you should pull your hair right now. That is only one example. Canon and Panasonic cameras are also same since they release new cameras almost every year at similar price as the previous model. Of course they don't change the MSRP since they don't sell the old models any more.
 
+1. Sony has not helped those poor folks at all. Not even a downgrade path to F5.

Jay Kim said:
If you bought a Sony F65 last year, you should pull your hair right now. That is only one example. Canon and Panasonic cameras are also same since they release new cameras almost every year at similar price as the previous model. Of course they don't change the MSRP since they don't sell the old models any more.
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I've never owned a camera that held it's value over the long term. I felt I was lucky to unload my betacam 400a when I did, even got $1000 for it!! I would say that Red Cameras will hold value as long as they are kept current, but even then they will still depreciate.

Kinda like cars.
 
The thing is, the F65 is still top dog in terms of resolution, dynamic range, and overall image quality. When the 'F95' comes out, owners will still be able to sell off their F65s for 1/3 or 1/4 of the initial cost and that'll be at least a couple of years from now. Don't forget - Sony are selling the F65 as an "8k" camera so on paper it still looks better than (and will continue to be compared to) Dragon to producers who don't really know/care. And that will be the case for the rest of both sensor's lifecycles (even though F65 is already a year+ old and Dragon isn't even out yet).

Ironically, I think RED is falling into the Innovator's Dilemma, and no amount of objectively superior product will save them from the onslaught of guys like BM, Digital Bolex, GoPro, etc. releasing (on paper) comparable cameras for a fraction of the cost. RED's sensor after Dragon might change the way people shoot movies (lytro style or whatever), but between now and then, for example (hypothetical) they'll still be applying polish to Dragon while BM and the like are releasing FF35 6k camera for $5k... Basically what I'm saying is, in the same way that RED has forced Sony, Arri, Canon, etc. to reevaluate their business plans, BM, DB, GP etc are going to seriously undermine RED's 'obsolescence obsolete' strategy. Why upgrade for $9500 every other year, when you can get a completely new/technologically-up-to-date and ready shoot camera every year for $5k?

The other guys (Sony et al) will say, "well, we've always been ~$100k premium cinema cameras and don't care about the <$5k market" and continue on as usually, but people won't buy RED for $17.5k when they can get a 'similar performing' camera for $5k... RED also won't raise their prices/profit margins to $100k as that would be turning their backs on their current users (basically starting from scratch.) So yeah, Innovator's Dilemma.

If people can get a BMPC for $4k before Scarlet owners can get a Scarlet-Dragon for $9.5k, I expect the vast majority of upcoming shooters - the people that would be upgrading in the coming years - won't buy into the RED at all... Even if SX brain dropped to <$4k, they still wouldn't because of the proprietary/expensive accessories required to be shootable. Again, if SD was 6k at 25fps, it'd be a sizeable bump... But BMPC doesn't have an OLPF so it'll probably look as sharp as Dragon at 6k (but with the associated visual artifacts that people will have no problems putting up with given the price.)

Outside of the REDcommunity people who haven't bought into RED are already looking at Scarlet-X as if it were a C300 (basically trumped by a $4k camera), and $9500 upgradability (more than the cost of the original camera) definitely does not change that mentality. Hell, even guys who've bought the FS700 are now able to "upgrade" to 4k/RAW and 240fps for a measly $2200 recorder (which in total is still less than the Scarlet), and the FS700 sensor has more DR and better low-light than MX. That makes the SX (and SD) a tough sell to emerging shooters looking for a camera.
 
Mike P. said:
Hell, even guys who've bought the FS700 are now able to "upgrade" to 4k/RAW and 240fps for a measly $2200 recorder (which in total is still less than the Scarlet), and the FS700 sensor has more DR and better low-light than MX. That makes the SX (and SD) a tough sell to emerging shooters looking for a camera.
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If you want to record 4K Raw with FS700, you need Sony’s HXR-IF5 interface module (about $2000) & AXS-R5 recorder ($5,300). And there is no way someone can convince me to spend extra $7,300 for FS700 to make it a franken rig which is still FS700.
 
My iphone shoots 1080 does that mean the Alexa is now in competition with it?(sarcastic hyperbole.... I apologize) GO PRO, DBolex, and BMC are different markets, POV, Nostalgia, and ultra indi. Sensors in a box are great, wonderful intro into the world of cinematography but by no means fully featured professional acquisition system, now that is not to say it can't be made to be very close to one or in the right hands produce beautiful images.

There will always be a market for both, if everyone suddenly started making sensors in a box with limited features and many compromises I would be furious, I'm happy with the choices we have. As seen from the Alexa and F65, price is only one part of the equation as well as specs on paper, real world functionality and ease of use in a given production environment is a much larger part of it. Thinking of everything in a purely budget mindset is a fallacy, as my grandfather used to say "I'm too poor to be cheap" buy once and pay the right price rather than buying multiple cheap versions and end up paying more for less. *cough* DSLR's *cough*

It just seems there are a lot of people with buyers remorse these days, which I'm sorry, but it's no ones fault but your own.

BMC is the new DSLR(but far better), amazing starter cameras as well as the potential to be used all the way up the ladder of production if you take the time to set them up right and work around the few issues(anything even an Iphone can be used in a professional environment it's just how much does it take to get it to fit in). The RED system though buggy has all the features and more you should need, it's a far more expensive system, but the cost is not all upfront you can pick and choose what you need in the modular system. I chose modular with as many options and features as I can get that is just me, if you have the time and patience it's in your price range or the system just works for you, great, but not everyone works the same or needs the same things.

I believe it's not just what you shoot and how that effects these decisions but also personal outlook on life in general, and there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with one approach or another, but there is when you are not tactful in your comments and understanding of others positions, proper etiquette and social graces are very useful in all aspects of life.

BMC looks great and all but as I said compromises I'm not willing to deal with on my main camera at this point(but that's just me) Go Pro I already own and is for very niche uses, and the DBolex at this point is an interesting nostalgic throwback with some interesting old/new ideas integrated. I was thinking about picking up a pocket cam to check out just wish it was 2.5-4k resolution that would make it a no brainier for me.

have a good one! and keep on creating!
 
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