NAB13- Scarlet Upgrade Program

[Alexander Thomson]

Current Scarlet is $7950 + $19K for full Scarlet to Epic Dragon upgrade. = $26,950. Or you could buy Epic Dragon at $24K. A $2,950 difference.

They could drop Scarlet MX to $5000 and instantly rain on the BMCC parade. Why have 4K for $4K when you can have RED 4K for $5K? No brainer deal to me. It means the price for me for owning a scarlet since 2011 was less than 3 grand. Now, that would be a sweet deal. I don't mind if they drop scarlet to $5000. To me, I'm just glad I got to have scarlet since it came out.

Im hoping this is how the math works out. That way, one can buy into the red system for (relatively) cheap, and upgrade their body when your needs require the next gen equipment. And it's great for RED because making MX sensors is probably easy as cake. Plus the new RED Educational discount, add it all together, I feel a HUGE storm coming to rain on the BMCC/C500 parade. this is fun.


EDIT: whoops. $7,950 is a Brain Only Scarlet. So it'd still be another 700+1,500 for a Canon Ai and Side SSD. They could still drop the brain only price to $5,000, add $2,200 for the Canon Ai and Side SSD and you get.... $7,200. Right around the same price as the BT Scarlets.... so maybe there is wiggle room for a lower cost Scarlet MX. That would be HUGE for both Hollywood and indie filmmaking.

 

[Brett Harrison]

They could drop Scarlet MX to $5000 and instantly rain on the BMCC parade. Why have 4K for $4K when you can have RED 4K for $5K?

Plus the required accessories from Red, which is a couple of grand, almost the price of the 4K BMCC just to make it function.

I know bare BMDCC needs accessories too but it's a different proportion.

 

[Alexander Thomson]

Plus the required accessories from Red, which is a couple of grand, almost the price of the 4K BMCC just to make it function.

I know bare BMDCC needs accessories too but it's a different proportion.

Of course, but when common news outlets like Engadget or CNET pick up the story, they headline will be "RED 4K starting at $5,000!!!!!!" And the everyday consumer will do the simple math like "woah, I can have the camera that shot [insert Hollywood blockbuster here] for just $1,000 more than this Blackmagic Cam? Sign me up!" Of course, add $700 for mags, $550 for a redmote or $950 for a side handle, and a power solution which is around $700. Yes, you're back up to over $7K, but do you know how much RED would annihilate the industry with a camera bodies starting at $5,000!? There's a mental barrier that gets broken when the camera body, the single most expensive component, besides lenses, is at $5,000. Unbeatable value.

 

[Brett Harrison]

Of course, but when common news outlets like Engadget or CNET pick up the story, they headline will be "RED 4K starting at $5,000!!!!!!" And the everyday consumer will do the simple math like "woah, I can have the camera that shot [insert Hollywood blockbuster here] for just $1,000 more than this Blackmagic Cam? Sign me up!" Of course, add $700 for mags, $550 for a redmote or $950 for a side handle, and a power solution which is around $700. Yes, you're back up to over $7K, but do you know how much RED would annihilate the industry with a camera bodies starting at $5,000!? There's a mental barrier that gets broken when the camera body, the single most expensive component, besides lenses, is at $5,000. Unbeatable value.

Well, I got the brain, side SSD and canon mount for 7100 so I can attest to that effect. Before then I was looking at the BMCC for 3K

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Yeah that BT offer was a great opportunity... Lucky you!

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

From Phil Holland's NAB Journal post:

First up an answer to a few questions out there. I caught Jarred in between probably 15 different meetings, but I did get some important questions answered.

Q: Will Scarlet Dragon have any 6K functionality?
A: Nope. Scarlet Dragon records at 5K at up to 60 frames per second.

So it seems no 6K for Scarlet-D.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Current Scarlet is $7950 + $19K for full Scarlet to Epic Dragon upgrade. = $26,950. Or you could buy Epic Dragon at $24K. A $2,950 difference.

They could drop Scarlet MX to $5000 and instantly rain on the BMCC parade. Why have 4K for $4K when you can have RED 4K for $5K? No brainer deal to me. It means the price for me for owning a scarlet since 2011 was less than 3 grand. Now, that would be a sweet deal. I don't mind if they drop scarlet to $5000. To me, I'm just glad I got to have scarlet since it came out.

Im hoping this is how the math works out. That way, one can buy into the red system for (relatively) cheap, and upgrade their body when your needs require the next gen equipment. And it's great for RED because making MX sensors is probably easy as cake. Plus the new RED Educational discount, add it all together, I feel a HUGE storm coming to rain on the BMCC/C500 parade. this is fun.

$5k would work, but they definitely need to make a shoot and share system with a module that covers basic connections, screen, with a control handle. Shoot and share means that you produce industry standard file or in camera convert to industry standard after it is shot, which is some form of AVC at the moment, or Mpeg2, in brilliant color balance like any camera does. You just hand the media file over or download to network after you are finished. The last thing a low end user wants to do is spend a lot of time correcting footage for low paid work. You can apply the color balance and user balance to a meta track or a redcode file for more high paid work, which helps you balance it yourself if you are not sharing it immediately. Such a module and features are a $500 item depending on volume. The scarket should already have processing power enough to produce these files, so some code and thunderbolt or USB and hdmi (you can get HDMI converters for the displayport part of thunderbolt), memory card, maybe sata and a few camera specific (not even talking about sdi here), This immediately makes it like a pro Canon DSLR also. If you wanted to, you can make it with a basic over the shoulder rail system balanced by battery, but then again you may want to charge an extra $500 for that. This appeals to video people more. But they may want to charge $6k-$10k for a Dragon version. Crushing the competition before they come with better product is a strategy.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Ok I wanted to distant myself from all this calculating on here but here I go

Think about it: you ALREADY SPENT the $8K or $9K on the camera (if you were lucky $4K). The money is gone.

BUT: you don't have to spend $24K ON TOP of that. I have the feeling a lot of people are forgetting that upgrades are not standard in this industry! This is not software!

 

[Luca Orlandi]

Agree

Ok I wanted to distant myself from all this calculating on here but here I go

Think about it: you ALREADY SPENT the 8 or $9K on the camera. The money is gone. And you don have to spend $24K ON TOP of that. I have the feeling a lot of people are forgetting that upgrades are not standard in this industry!

 

[Maik Müller]

Think about it: you ALREADY SPENT the 8 or $9K on the camera. The money is gone. And you don have to spend $24K ON TOP of that. I have the feeling a lot of people are forgetting that upgrades are not standard in this industry!

Don't get it why people tend to forget that and the fact that they already have a camera to make money with.

Why does every Scarlet-Upgrade/Dragon-thread go into such a direction with "funny" math and talk about loosing "investments"? It's a bit sad, because this offer is great and should be much more appreciated. RED listened and gave us what many people requested, a Dragon-Scarlet (big surprise), a way to EPIC-MX and through that a way to EPIC-D.

Insane. I've never seen that before.

 

[Scott Crawley]

One of the most unique aspects of Red cameras has been their ability to hold value for an extended period of time. Their entire business is built on it. It is due for the most part to the incredibly high initial value of the tools, and the added value of the modular design. It seems to me that those who suggest Red should be engaging in a price slashing battle for the bottom of the market are overlooking this Red cornerstone. You can't slash prices and maintain value. Price slashing only works in the Canon/Sony business model where Obsolesence is the rule and a new camera is introduced every six months.

Edit: OK "only" may be over-stating my case a bit. I'm sure there are other scenarios that I am overlooking but price slashing (read: cheap) and value are diametrically opposed tactics.

 

[Michael Patterson]

One of the most unique aspects of Red cameras has been their ability to hold value for an extended period of time. Their entire business is built on it. It is due for the most part to the incredibly high initial value of the tools, and the added value of the modular design. It seems to me that those who suggest Red should be engaging in a price slashing battle for the bottom of the market are overlooking this Red cornerstone. You can't slash prices and maintain value. Price slashing only works in the Canon/Sony business model where Obsolesence is the rule.

Agreed. This is one of the main reasons that I turned to RED. I got sick of needing to upgrade cameras every year. 2012 was the first year where I wasn't even considering or even paying attention that much to what other companies were coming out with. I spent the extra money so I could use something for years to come. Not months.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

... RED listened and gave us what many people requested, a Dragon-Scarlet (big surprise), a way to EPIC-MX and through that a way to EPIC-D.
Insane. I've never seen that before.

Exactly! I have NEVER! seen any company do that.

Buy a Mac Mini now and trade it in paying the difference towards a MacPro as soon as new processors arrive?

 

[Brian Merlen]

+1 for the longevity factor... This ain't a prosumer camera you can throw out. People talk to me like the 4kBMC really is a competitor for Red, which is absurd you might as well say the 4k go pro is shiznit! Equating whatever gets it done cheapest to quality is not the right idea here. Red competes with Arri, this ain't no low budget DSLR crowd. Also none of the other guys in the biz do anything like this nor maintain value. In fact the only time Reds lost value was as their own doing, and like I said then, if you just hold out for upgrade season you cannot lose. I'd like to think I was right. You guys sitting there squabbling over what percentage of money is lost in the upgrade path are thinking about this backwards. Who else will give you a almost free rental, for months on end (years?), and then let you trade up at almost no money "lost" as you guys see it?

No one would do that, I am surprised Red even does this. You guys do what you want, but its not like they set cut off dates for stages here, I'd take a step back, wait for footage, and try to relax a bit and enjoy the ride... Its like every time Red does anything awesome people find a way to paint it in the bleakest of terms. Worse case scenario, enjoy that camera you got. Its a beautiful day, go shoot some of its magic

 

[Eric Santiago]

...I have the feeling a lot of people are forgetting that upgrades are not standard in this industry! This is not software!

I want to live in that world...wait I do, its RED

 

[Enrique Blein]

About the lack of footage, I can wait...I can only imagine it is improving in tonal rendering and noise from what I already see coming from my Scarlet (I´m sure it will keep the same feel, unless the sensor manufacturer is an entirely different provider and/or Grame isn´t involved). I don´t know about sharpness, in fact I have never seen 4K in my life, yet 6K.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I am though going to say this:

If you opt for a full Scarlet to Epic dragon update at once maybe this could be a bit cheaper because they only have to do the labour once and they are not exchanging the boards twice.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I am though going to say this:

If you opt for a full Scarlet to Epic dragon update at once maybe this could be a bit cheaper because they only have to do the labour once and they are not exchanging the boards twice.

I'm surprised the option to go directly to epic dragon from scarlet is not a little cheaper for the reasons you mention. Also, it's not clear weather you would get an epic now before the upgrade program in July.

 

[Brian Merlen]

What I really wonder about is: how good is the Dragon Sensor vs other competitors. As much as I want an Epic for the love of over cranking, if Dragons (including the Scarlet baby brother) are a super hot production value because they become the new buzzword, it makes me hard pressed to wanna throw that kind of coin for an MX Epic. I love the frame rates, its a wonderful camera, but at the same time its tech is more dated and I worry not going Dragon Scarlet might hurt me financially if the sensor becomes known as better than the other offerings. Insert competing brands sensor here...

PS if the specs for Dragon Scarlet reveal significant over cranking at lower K's (Like 1kws or 2k) that even come close to, or match Epic MX I think I have to go for Scarlet Dragon. The color rendition alone might make it the king of camera wars for a good year or two until the competitors get a cleaner low light option in high res/over cranks/raw

 

[M.D. Biemann]

Thank you.... plain... simple... true... THANK YOU!!!