NAB13- Dragon Sensor Upgrade Program begins

[Daniel Pearson]

Interesting the new design of the side SSD, is this part of the upgrade I wonder...

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

From the DRAGON FAQ :

CAN OTHER RED OFFICES (E.G., RED EUROPE LTD) PERFORM DRAGON UPGRADES?

At this time, the DRAGON upgrade program can only be performed at our Irvine, CA USA upgrade facility.





IF I PURCHASED MY EPIC FROM RED EUROPE LTD DO I SEND IT TO RED EUROPE LTD TO BE SHIPPED TO THE IRVINE, CA USA FACILITY FOR THE DRAGON UPGRADE PROGRAM?

Yes.

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

Maybe they can ship the NAB mini-lab to Europe... ;-)

 

[Mikael Lubtchansky]

Maybe they can ship the NAB mini-lab to Europe... ;-)

Excellente idée !
;-D

 

[Eric Haase]

Color Science is not finished... Everything else is, minus of course Rocket support as that is dependent on the first.

Playback, Audio, all that other bits have been completed for quite some time. All that is left is making sure we get the best image possible.

Jarred,

That makes me nervous. All that's left is the most important part. I placed my order. I'm SUPER excited. I love my Epic. I loved my Red One MX. I loved my Red One. But the most important improvement for me should be the color and DR. It should just work and look great. I really hope we are not beta testing this thing in the field for 6 months. I was under the impression that RED had "learned from past mistakes" in this area. I'm really not trying to be negative. I can see the massive amount of work put into this and the other products. You all must be exhausted blazing new trails against tight deadlines. It's very much appreciated- the Epic is an incredible camera and I enjoy shooting with it every week.

BUT I just want the Dragon rollout to be perfect. And most of all, I don't want to have to make excuses for the camera if it doesn't work properly. Can't wait to see images from Dragon and let mine breathe fire.

 

[Jarred Land]

Jarred,

That makes me nervous. All that's left is the most important part. I placed my order. I'm SUPER excited. I love my Epic. I loved my Red One MX. I loved my Red One. But the most important improvement for me should be the color and DR. It should just work and look great. I really hope we are not beta testing this thing in the field for 6 months. I was under the impression that RED had "learned from past mistakes" in this area. I'm really not trying to be negative. I can see the massive amount of work put into this and the other products. You all must be exhausted blazing new trails against tight deadlines. It's very much appreciated- the Epic is an incredible camera and I enjoy shooting with it every week.

BUT I just want the Dragon rollout to be perfect. And most of all, I don't want to have to make excuses for the camera if it doesn't work properly. Can't wait to see images from Dragon and let mine breathe fire.

Hey Eric. Color Science is critical.. which is why we are not showing footage until it is ready. That's where we learned our lesson.

I'm not nervous. I was nervous when this impossible sensor came out of the oven.. and then I was nervous when the new ASICs were born. I cant tell you how difficult those 2 pieces of the puzzle are to get perfect at the increased speeds and resolution and yet still fit in the tiny package that the EPIC is as an Upgrade. A few miracles happened along the way there. The Dragon camera firmware has been complete for many months.. it has all the features enabled that the current Epics do... and then some. You aren't starting over waiting for audio or other standard bits like usual.

We have gotten alot better at color science.. and we can't wait for you to see it. But when your noise floor is as low as the Dragon is, its like washing a window that every other sensor has always had dirty.. When the window becomes clean, you see all sorts of things down there that you need to address... which is what we are doing

Jarred

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

Hey Eric. Color Science is critical.. which is why we are not showing footage until it is ready. That's where we learned our lesson.

I'm not nervous. I was nervous when this impossible sensor came out of the oven.. and then I was nervous when the new ASICs were born. I cant tell you how difficult those 2 pieces of the puzzle are to get perfect at the increased speeds and resolution and yet still fit in the tiny package that the EPIC is as an Upgrade. A few miracles happened along the way there. The Dragon camera firmware has been complete for many months.. it has all the features enabled that the current Epics do... and then some. You aren't starting over waiting for audio or other standard bits like usual.

We have gotten alot better at color science.. and we can't wait for you to see it. But when your noise floor is as low as the Dragon is, its like washing a window that every other sensor has always had dirty.. When the window becomes clean, you see all sorts of things down there that you need to address... which is what we are doing

Jarred

The biggest question I think a lot of people want to know is how close is the Dragon color to the MX chip red Epic color? Can the footage be interchanged between an Epic and Dragon? Is Dragon closer to Epic than it is to another camera for instance or is it a completely different look?

 

[Eric Haase]

Hey Eric. Color Science is critical.. which is why we are not showing footage until it is ready. That's where we learned our lesson.

I'm not nervous. I was nervous when this impossible sensor came out of the oven.. and then I was nervous when the new ASICs were born. I cant tell you how difficult those 2 pieces of the puzzle are to get perfect at the increased speeds and resolution and yet still fit in the tiny package that the EPIC is as an Upgrade. A few miracles happened along the way there. The Dragon camera firmware has been complete for many months.. it has all the features enabled that the current Epics do... and then some. You aren't starting over waiting for audio or other standard bits like usual.

We have gotten alot better at color science.. and we can't wait for you to see it. But when your noise floor is as low as the Dragon is, its like washing a window that every other sensor has always had dirty.. When the window becomes clean, you see all sorts of things down there that you need to address... which is what we are doing

Jarred

Jarred, Thanks for the reply. All good information. So will the first Dragons be using the RG3/RC3 color science? Is there a projected timeline for new color science?

 

[Jon Jones]

HAHAHAHA! Freakin Awesome! I really thought that RED dropped the ball on me, I'm so glad that is not the case! Thank you guys for sticking with your promise! I didn't realize that it was only a 7 month window, thank God that I bought within that time frame!

I was wondering the same until I checked the FAQs. Here you go:

 

[jacob.schwarz]

Any chance we'll see some footage before the end of NAB or are we talking a few more weeks out? But I'd still rather you get it done right then see it before its ready and have people bitch like they always do

Congrats on the sensor! It amazing how fast you guys are moving now.

 

[Vithya Sharma]

Woow... TnX Jarred.....

 

[Kip Kubin]

Yes, you are wrong. The sensor height of an Alexa 4:3 is 17.82mm tall, Dragon is 15.8mm tall... Standard academy anamorphic aperture size is 18.59mm tall, so both the Alexa and the Dragon represent a crop factor on anamorphic lenses... Alexa, however, is much closer to the film gate size than Dragon... However, Dragon is now over 3mm taller than the Red One was, which is HUGE. I think the height of the Dragon falls right in a nice "sweet spot" for the lenses... Traditionally anamorphics really struggle with the outer edges performance-wise...

The only draw back is getting a wide lens!

Thanks Chris

Good excuse for me to round out my kit with a 22mm Sq Frnt

 

[Lauri Kettunen]

Just to clarify a detail. Red.com says

Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
12 and 16-bit RAW : Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1-100 fps 6K
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K 

1-150 fps
4K 
1-200 fps
3K 
1-300 fps 2K

especially 4K is 1-200fps whereas Jarred's table says 1-150. Which one is correct?

Dragon Specs....

[TABLE="class: t1"]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]SENSOR[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]19 MEGAPIXEL DRAGON[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]PIXEL ARRAY[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]6144 (h) x 3160 (v)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]S/N RATIO[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]80db
[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]DYNAMIC RANGE[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]16.5+ stops ( assuming a 13.5+ stop rating on Epic-X )
[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]MAX IMAGE AREA[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]6144 (h) x 3160 (v)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]Sensor Size ( Active )[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]30.7mm (h) x 15.8 mm (v) x 34.5 mm (d)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"][/TD]
[TD="class: td5"][/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]ACQUISITION FORMATS[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]6K RAW (2:1, 2.4:1)
5K RAW (Full Frame, 2:1, 2.4:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
4.5K RAW (2.4:1)
4K RAW (16:9, HD, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
3K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
2K RAW (16:9, 2:1 and Anamorphic 2:1)
1080p RGB (16:9)
720p RGB (16:9)
[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]PROJECT FRAME RATES[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 47.96, 48, 50, 59.94 fps, all resolutions
[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]PROGRAM OUTPUT[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]HD-SDI Clean Feed
2K RGB, 1080p RGB or 4:2:2, 720p 4:2:2
SMPTE Timecode, HANC Metadata, 24-bit 48Khz Audio[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]MONITOR OUTPUT[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]HD-SDI and HDMI with Frame Guides and Look Around
2K RGB, 1080p RGB or 4:2:2, 720p RGB or 4:2:2
SMPTE Timecode, HANC Metadata, 24-bit 48Khz Audio
[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]DIGITAL MEDIA REDMAG (SSD)
[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]64, 128, 256, 512GB Media[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]REDCODE™ 12 and 16-bit RAW[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1-100 fps, 6K 2.4:1
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K
1-150 fps 4K
1-200 fps 3K
1-300 fps 2K[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]AUDIO[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]2 channel, uncompressed, 24 bit, 48kHz
Optional 4 channel, and AES / EBU digital audio
[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]MONITORING OPTIONS[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]RED LCD 5" Touchscreen Display, RED LCD 9" Touchscreen Display, RED LCD 7" Hi-Brite Display, BOMB EVF™ High Definition Viewfinder
[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]REMOTE CONTROL[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]Wireless, Ethernet, RS232, GPI Trigger[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"][/TD]
[TD="class: td5"][/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: td4"]TEMPERATURE RANGES[/TD]
[TD="class: td5"]Operating Range: 0˚C to +40˚C (32˚F to 104˚F)
Storage Range: -20˚C to +50˚C (-4˚F to 122˚F)[/TD]
[TD="class: td6"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Just to clarify a detail. Red.com says

Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
12 and 16-bit RAW : Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1-100 fps 6K
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K 

1-150 fps
4K 
1-200 fps
3K 
1-300 fps 2K

especially 4K is 1-200fps whereas Jarred's table says 1-150. Which one is correct?

Those look like they say the same thing just the first one is oddly formatted so "4k" and "3k" fall on the wrong lines (notice the last line says "3K 
1-300 fps 2K") ... 150fps 4k

 

[Peter Majtan]

Those look like they say the same thing just the first one is oddly formatted so "4k" and "3k" fall on the wrong lines (notice the last line says "3K 
1-300 fps 2K") ... 150fps 4k

Indeed - it should be like this:


Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
12 and 16-bit RAW : Compression choices of 18:1 to 3:1
1-100 fps 6K
1-120 fps 5K, 4.5K 

1-150 fps 4K

1-200 fps 3K

1-300 fps 2K

P

 

[chad vachter]

hi there , and congrats on getting the Dragon out to everyone.
Im curious if folks who bought a epic from the factory in the last 3 weeks might get a small consideration .
i would have waited to buy a dragon x for 24000. had i known it would be a option .
i would not expect to jump ahead in line . just perhaps the price difference between the epic x i bought and the dragon-x 24,000
I am not complaining , as i have a excellent tool for motion picture use. just curious, as i think you did a consideration for people who bought their scarlets not long before the crazy price drop .

and as i know people can be quite sensitive in general, i am not trying to offend those who bought epics for 45,000.00 +

 

[Owen Rennie]

It's probably been asked and maybe a silly question but why do we need 6k? I love the idea of extra DR but isn't 5k good enough for everything? I'm just trying to figure out what red path i will take..

Thanks

 

[Peter Majtan]

It's probably been asked and maybe a silly question but why do we need 6k? I love the idea of extra DR but isn't 5k good enough for everything? I'm just trying to figure out what red path i will take..

Thanks

Pulling higher res stills out would be the first obvious implication...
You can now resolve optical 4K motion and still have a room to stabilize or frame-out that boom from the shot without loosing 4K final quality...
The more you downscale - the more you reduce noise and improve DR and sharpness...

etc...

P

 

[Peter Dmitriyev]

Pulling higher res stills out would be the first obvious implication...
You can now resolve optical 4K motion and still have a room to stabilize or frame-out that boom from the shot without loosing 4K final quality...
The more you downscale - the more you reduce noise and improve DR and sharpness...

etc...

P

well from a sensor design perspective the more you pump up the resolution the less DR you're able to get generally since the more pixels and thus photosites you stuff onto a sensor, the smaller those photosites have to be. and the smaller the photosites, the less dyrnamic range. this is why alexa's photosites are much larger than those in red MX sensor. red has much more of them, alexa has less but much bigger ones that can collect much more light (dynamic range).

I'm still trying to figure out how Sony got 8k worth of them on the f65 and still supposedly is hitting 14 stops. Must be some innovation in signal processing on the digital end of things

 

[Thomas Pohl]

Odd no footage yet. Want to see a side by side comparison of MX vs Dragon. Would love to see an example of what the Motion Mount looks like as well. Any chance we get to see footage during NAB??

Yes - as I said