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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB 2018: Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera 4K

How much in terms of accessories -- on top of the initial body do you think one would need to spend to have a half decent ready to shoot kit?
 
Tom Gold said:
How much in terms of accessories -- on top of the initial body do you think one would need to spend to have a half decent ready to shoot kit?
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You'll need batteries, media and a lens to start shooting. Shooting format data rates are listed under the cameras specs and will determine how much media you'll need.

You know this, obviously, so what's the real question here?

Yes, you'll need ND filters. If you're using FF glass, the Metabones XL adapter ($695) is nice. The Ronin-S is a given for me personally (less than $1000).

The one person best suited to answer what your need are is... again, obviously, you.

Start up Excel or Numbers and put a few kits together. It can be satisfying work, since you'll be waiting a while anyway....
 
Tom Gold said:
How much in terms of accessories -- on top of the initial body do you think one would need to spend to have a half decent ready to shoot kit?
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I think that really depends on your needs from it and what you intend to use it for. I imagine for lots of people, a lens and a card is all they'll need.

If you're wanting to shoot raw, you'll need CFast card(s), which'll set you back another $300-$1000 per card depending on what you get.
But if you aren't going to shoot raw, you don't have to factor that in too much.

Lenswise, you could get some Micro 4/3 Lenses, which are not very expensive compared to PL Mount lenses.
Veydra, Rokinon, SLR Magic, and some others are around the $1,000 or less price point per lens, but you could even get Zeiss CP.3's or Tokina Vistas in Micro 4/3 at their usual prices.
Alternatively, pick up a speedbooster for around $600 (for EF) or $700 (for PL). Or you could pick up both.
EF seems a little bit more fitting in my opinion due to the wider variety of lenses, but as a B Camera, PL would make more sense.

Otherwise on top of that,
Add in rails, a follow focus, lens support, and a matte box and it'd be fairly "ready to shoot".
Quick-release system if you want things to go faster and don't mind the added bulk.
And I'm sure we'll be seeing tactical cages for this soon enough.

So maybe an extra 2K if you aren't counting lenses and don't go for the cheapest accessories.
Something like a Revolvr Atom, 15mm Rail System, and a Misfit Atom, Speedbooster, along with 512 GB's of CFast Cards.
That considered though, 3.5K USD isn't bad for a "complete" system.

To me though, I think the lure of it is the lightweight abilities, and I don't see myself stacking it with as many things as I would a RED.
I'll probably pick one up at some point (need to buy Resolve anyways, mind as well get a sweet B Cam with the purchase).
 
Tom Gold said:
How much in terms of accessories -- on top of the initial body do you think one would need to spend to have a half decent ready to shoot kit?
Click to expand...

Speedbooster $ 700 (0.71x)
Sigma 18..35 $ 800
Some SD cards to shoot prores $ 100/each
External SSD to shoot prores or raw 1 TB $ 350
Batteries.... $ 25/each
 
Batteries are anywhere from $12-50 each depending on which ones you buy. Keep in mind ideally the cheaper ones should come with their own charger because they have very specific charging requirements compared to the Canon. You will need around 6 of them.

Lenses are a big topic for debate. Micro 4/3 lenses such as Veydra, Panasonic, etc. are affordable for what they are, but compared to EF glass the lenses are more expensive. If you go speedbooster and EF lenses then that's around $650 for either an XL or an ULTRA speedbooster. If you do buy micro 4/3 lenses they won't have any use outside of micro 4/3 cameras because of the mount and the small image circle they cover. So in terms of future investment, they're not great unless you think Micro 4/3 is a format that you like, but from a technical perspective, Micro 4/3 is behind larger sensors in image quality and always will be.

ND filters will likely be just like all other Blackmagic cameras. The IR cut filter over the sensor is weaker so you have to provide your own IR control when using NDs. Because it's meant to be a smaller camera, screw on filters are probably the better choice. There are a couple good options that work. Formattech Firecrest, Hoya Solas IRND, SLR Magic, or simply stacking ND filters with an IR cut filter. They will likely cost around $120-150 per filter. If you use a speedbooster that's already 1.3 stops of extra light so you're going to need at a 6-8 stop filter minimum.

SD cards or Cfast are better for a more compact setup. About $300 for a cheaper $256gb Cfast card. Or around $350 if you want to go 1TB external SSD.

If you buy more rigging accessories such as rails, follow focus, mattebox, handle, etc. that can vary wildly depending on what you buy. But you don't need any of that if you want to keep it small.

Long story short, depending on what you already have and how cheap you want to go, you're looking at close to $3000 for a basic setup. Biggest expense that would not exist with other smaller formfactor cameras like DSLR/Mirrorless is the larger and faster drives required store the codecs. On top of that batteries are generally not an issue with smaller cameras like it will be with the Blackmagic. ND filters could be skipped if you are fine increasing your shutter or stopping down the lens. And you could just buy one lens such as Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-140mm f/3.5-5.6 for $500 or the 12-35 f2.8 for $900.
 
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AndreeMarkefors said:
I'm not sure this was meant to be ironic or not, but isn't it the other way around?


  • The Raven is built like a brick, and you need another brick on top of that for power --> BMPCC4K is built like a camera that sits correctly in your hand with important controls at your fingertips.
  • The Raven is marketed as a light weight camera at 3.5 lbs. And it is, for what it does. --> But the BMPCC4K will likely be even lighter using its carbon fiber polycarbonate composite shell.
  • The Raven's monitor adds substantial volume on top of the camera --> The BMPCC4K's screen is already built into the body (and the main reason the body is as large as it is).
  • The Raven has a slightly larger physical sensor size (23x10.8 mm) but uses a fixed EF mount where FF lenses spill lots of light outside the sensor --> BMPCC4K is SpeedBooster XL compatible, including electronic passthrough, which takes the whole FF image circle and projects it more or less to the exact MFT sensor size of the BMPCC4K, at around 17x10 mm.
  • Raven has "scratch audio" pickup --> The BMPCC4K has "we wanted to make sure it has great audio, because sometimes you don't want to add an additional microphone"-level audio, according to Grant Petty. Who knows what this means, but the audio might be fine for picking up ambient in some situations.
  • The Raven records to REDMags --> The BMPCC4K records to CFast or SD USH-II cards. Or via USB-C directly to an external drive.

I still see the Raven as more of a production camera. It has its strengths in higher FPS and a solid workflow. The BMPCC4K is more of a personal camera, that perhaps for the first time since the 5D mkII, unlocks a new tier of performance in a large enough sensor, in a form factor that you can carry around—for pocket change. Add to this the complete software solution that is included with DaVinci Resolve/Fusion/Fairlight 15 Studio.

Yes, time will tell how it lives up to each of its 'on paper specs', but in my mind compared to RED Raven, there is no "being destroyed", in any way. Each camera has its pros and cons and that's fine.

Surely, the BMPCC4K is all anyone starting out would need to explore cinematography techniques and workflows on a personal level. And if they find themselves in a commercial environment and the camera turns out to have some issues like moiré or whatever, they can always trow money at the problem and upgrade to a substantial camera kit in that situation.
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I would have loved it more if it had an EF mount and a variable angle LCD like the DSLRs. Hopefully we can sync a phone to it? Will have to pickup a speedbooster. Will wait to hear how it works before buying. This camera is of incredible value. Will use it for what it was designed - as it is ie. without rigs.
 
I disagree. That's one of the shortcomings of the Raven that no one is happy to admit. It's basically a slightly larger than Micro 4/3 sensor in 16x9 mode which would be so much better if it was a true Micro 4/3 mount and sensor size. But you can't change that because RED doesn't want to design a new sensor entirely for a cheap camera and nor would they like to admit that their sensor is that small. Plus they have issues with the distance between the sensor and the mount that won't support such a micro 4/3 mount either.
Speedbooster + ef mount combo, or simply just micro 4/3 lenses is a much more superior solution. RED probably wouldn't allow that either because they wouldn't want their users buying a cheaper camera with a larger format image and better sensitivity.

Kinefinity seems to have figured this out and made the perfect micro 4/3 camera. Blackmagic too.

I think the cost savings of them reusing an old LCD from a few of their older products and not designing it to swivel was a smart choice. I do like the 5" display very much.

That's where Blackmagic is very smart. They source exactly what they need to make their cameras and build it in a way that's cost-effective while giving as much as they can. If they can add it as a feature and they have the know-how it will almost certainly be added to their cameras at a fair price.
 
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Sabyasachi Patra said:
I would have loved it more if it had an EF mount…
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Savannah Miller said:
I disagree.
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I'm with Savannah on this one.

While I'm generally not a fan of "needing" an adapter mounted at all times (and I did experience some flaky behaviour with a Speedbooster and the FS700 back in the day), I think the current solution is the most flexible one. This way, by applying a Speedbooster you can target whatever lens setup you have. I could see lots of users opting for a booster converting from EF-S and then using Sigma's fast zooms like the 18-35 mm f1.8 and so on. I'm sitting on lots of EF FF glass, so I'll be using the XL booster.

And of course, as seen in most demonstrations of the camera, you can just use it as it is—with MFT glass like Voigtländers and keep the package small.

While adding stuff like boosters and NDs will increase total package cost, there is simply NO room to complain about price or hidden costs. There really is no room for that here.

Apart from the mount in this case, I think we are looking for similar things in a camera Sabyasachi. Some people gripe about this not being a pocket camera, but I'd welcome it being even slightly larger. Perhaps to accommodate a battery similar to the one in the 1Dx mkII, a rotating grip, rotatable screen and an even larger "nose" with built in ND filters.

Anyway, this camera on a Ronin-S will be sweet. The focus module on the Ronin will let you drive focus electronically which will give you a stabilised, focusable package with a large screen right in front of your eyes. And beyond that I'm sure we'll see many interesting add-ons if the camera proves popular and capable.
 
Can you have nd filters in a m4/3 mount? The flange distance is pretty small.

Biggest complaint from me is I prefer the dynamic range from Blackmagic's use of Fairchild imaging dual-gain sensors. I think the heat from those sensors is too much to fit in a pocket 4K sized body, which is the reason that they haven't made a new pocket sooner. Plus high ISO is what the average person wants more.
 
Misha Engel said:
Latitude of the UMP is 15 (BMD claim), latitude of the pocket is claimed to be 13 stops.
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Oh cool so you’ve been able to compare footage from them to see how much worse it is? ;)

I’m not saying you won’t be able to see a difference; just that talking about what you do and don’t prefer before even seeing real production footage is funny.
 
To be fair from the chart posted during the NAB livestream announcement, there's approximately 13 stops of DR in 400 ISO mode, and once you shift over to 1600 ISO+ it activates the 3200 ISO mode which has closer to 10 stop of DR. From the leaked NAB prores file when the shooter ramps through the different ISO settings on the scroll wheel you can see a noticable decrease in highlight retention. I know it's not final firmware but it's likely not too far off given demo units are already in the hands of testers and Blackmagic asked the shots to be removed citing there will be demo footage very shortly.

I was advocating that if you HAVE to shoot at 1600 ISO to do it using 800iso raw to stay in the first [400 iso] mode and then bump to 1600 in post to maximize dynamic range. Some cameras have selectable low light mode (gh5s, gemini, etc.) and some cameras (Terra 4K, Pocket 4K) automatically switch for you.
 
It seems the cameras with the best Dynamic range in a smaller, mirrorless form factor belong to Sony. Outside of cameras with proprietary sensors, Canon, Sony, etc. it seems that the only high dynamic range sensors that Blackmagic has any luck with are the Fairchild Imaging dual-gain sensors and those run too hot to have a 4K sensor in a smaller form factor body.

The new Sony A7III claims 15 stops of DR and without testing their claims it does seem to pack a huge amount in such a small form factor body. It likely has the other usual Sony mirrorless issues of poor 8-bit codec, bad rolling shutter, limited recording times, and overheating issues.
 
Savannah Miller said:
Can you have nd filters in a m4/3 mount? The flange distance is pretty small.
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Yes you can, the Panasonic AF100 (and variants) had it, as does JVC LS300.

Plus of course lots of E mount cameras have ND filters too with an even more shallow mount.
 
Frank Glencairn said:
That's not the point of a "Pocket" camera. You use it when you need small, light or stealthy.

I did an article on that, if someone is interested.

https://frankglencairn.wordpress.co...-the-original-pocket-and-why-it-doesnt-mater/
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Nice article Frank.

It's basically 4K for $1K - and if you were considering Fusion or Resolve Studio it's basically free. A very short while ago Resolve and Fusion studio were $995 each. Now they are combined for $295 standalone or a free add on with the camera.
 
Frank Glencairn said:
I did an article on that, if someone is interested.
Click to expand...

I dunno Frank, this still comes off pretty condescending. Just gonna kind of run my points here:

The first thing I take umbrage with is how dismissive you are about the flip screen. For folks who are operating the camera while it is pointing at someone or something else, that’s no problem. Sure, you’re gonna have to get down and dirty for certain angles, but that’s a compromise that I think a lot of folks—myself included—are willing to make to have a gorgeous 5”, 1080p touch screen.

However, Grant specifically said that they designed the 4KPCC so people could shoot themselves with it and that’s really hard to do when you can’t see the frame. You might think of Casey Neistat and his ilk’s content as lame populist vlogger bullshit, but the fact is that consumers watch that content and a generation of people are motivated to continue making it, so if a manufacturer claims to have designed their product with that market segment in mind but it omits a feature broadly used by that demographic, it bears mentioning.

As a total aside, I genuinely don’t think that there’s such a thing as a “Cinema Camera” anymore. If you put a cinematic scene in front of your lens, who cares what your camera is named? I get it; some features (flip screen, solid auto focus, etc.) lend themselves less to cinema and more to vlog/lifestyle production, but telling people they shouldn’t use a “Cinema Camera” for vlogging just comes off as pretentious in 2018. Why is everyone trying to draw dotted lines around what gear is and isn’t acceptable to use? Yeesh. Leave the judgement at the door.

As for the battery thing, I again think that most people will understand when you explain to them that powering a 5” screen, 4K60p sensor, and all the surrounding hardware on a single LP-E6 for around an hour is actually kind of miraculous. I mean, those things aren’t really all that big and probably weren’t designed for what BMD is using them for here, so to have them running the 4KPCC in the first place is a feat of engineering...

However, calling people out because you work in a segment of the industry where you’re swapping V-Mounts every 45-min isn’t a great look. For starters, why aren’t you running off a block battery or higher capacity V-Mount if you’re swapping that much? I work on union series and tbh the 2nd ACs would get pretty tired of that shit after the third swap before hot substantial. I also can’t really imagine a doc crew putting up with that either, especially in remote locations. Not like the 4KPCC is gonna be used as an A-Cam for big series or Planet Earth 3; just saying that I don’t know where you’re working that 45 min between swaps is somehow de rigueur.

Back on topic though, maybe people need longer run times because their shooting style or shooting schedule that day necessitates it. Maybe they’re on a small crew and having to run batteries every 45 min really disrupts the flow of the day. Maybe they had a V-Mount setup with their BMPCC and they really enjoyed being able to make two 93whr batteries last an entire day. Whatever it is, why does this stuff bother you so much? I get it; when armchair engineers have unrealistic expectations it frustrates me too because I feel like no one appreciates the work that goes in to these cameras, but surely someone rigging out a 4KPCC with a little extra juice running to it isn’t a total sacrilege.

Anyway, my $0.02.
 
Alex.Mitchell said:
I dunno Frank, this still comes off pretty condescending. Just gonna kind of run my points here:

The first thing I take umbrage with is how dismissive you are about the flip screen. For folks who are operating the camera while it is pointing at someone or something else, that’s no problem. Sure, you’re gonna have to get down and dirty for certain angles, but that’s a compromise that I think a lot of folks—myself included—are willing to make to have a gorgeous 5”, 1080p touch screen.

However, Grant specifically said that they designed the 4KPCC so people could shoot themselves with it and that’s really hard to do when you can’t see the frame. You might think of Casey Neistat and his ilk’s content as lame populist vlogger bullshit, but the fact is that consumers watch that content and a generation of people are motivated to continue making it, so if a manufacturer claims to have designed their product with that market segment in mind but it omits a feature broadly used by that demographic, it bears mentioning.

As a total aside, I genuinely don’t think that there’s such a thing as a “Cinema Camera” anymore. If you put a cinematic scene in front of your lens, who cares what your camera is named? I get it; some features (flip screen, solid auto focus, etc.) lend themselves less to cinema and more to vlog/lifestyle production, but telling people they shouldn’t use a “Cinema Camera” for vlogging just comes off as pretentious in 2018. Why is everyone trying to draw dotted lines around what gear is and isn’t acceptable to use? Yeesh. Leave the judgement at the door.

As for the battery thing, I again think that most people will understand when you explain to them that powering a 5” screen, 4K60p sensor, and all the surrounding hardware on a single LP-E6 for around an hour is actually kind of miraculous. I mean, those things aren’t really all that big and probably weren’t designed for what BMD is using them for here, so to have them running the 4KPCC in the first place is a feat of engineering...

However, calling people out because you work in a segment of the industry where you’re swapping V-Mounts every 45-min isn’t a great look. For starters, why aren’t you running off a block battery or higher capacity V-Mount if you’re swapping that much? I work on union series and tbh the 2nd ACs would get pretty tired of that shit after the third swap before hot substantial. I also can’t really imagine a doc crew putting up with that either, especially in remote locations. Not like the 4KPCC is gonna be used as an A-Cam for big series or Planet Earth 3; just saying that I don’t know where you’re working that 45 min between swaps is somehow de rigueur.

Back on topic though, maybe people need longer run times because their shooting style or shooting schedule that day necessitates it. Maybe they’re on a small crew and having to run batteries every 45 min really disrupts the flow of the day. Maybe they had a V-Mount setup with their BMPCC and they really enjoyed being able to make two 93whr batteries last an entire day. Whatever it is, why does this stuff bother you so much? I get it; when armchair engineers have unrealistic expectations it frustrates me too because I feel like no one appreciates the work that goes in to these cameras, but surely someone rigging out a 4KPCC with a little extra juice running to it isn’t a total sacrilege.

Anyway, my $0.02.
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I got a Monstro, We use the "flip screen" on quite large production to make the talent see her/him self when acting. Works great when for example doing precision moves of hands etc infront of screen. So no thats not only a Vblogger kind of feature.
 
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