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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

NAB 2011 update...

Do we really want to go back to the days of only announcing products when they're on the assembly line? I for one am excited about the Dragon announcement, and I continue to appreciate Red's approach. Transparency comes at the cost of increased uncertainty -- seems to me that we can't have it both ways. Complaining about an upgrade path is NOT something I'm inclined to do.
 
Andreas Fernbrant said:
I can't help feeling a bit sorry for all the people paying thousands of dollars going there for this announcement.
Click to expand...

You mean that these people spent thousands of dollars to go to NAB to hear "big news"? Have they not heard of the internet? Its this new thing where you can hear big news from the comfort of your living room with little or no cost. But seriously, if anyone spent thousands of dollars to go to NAB just to hear an announcement from Red and they are disappointed, then they are just foolish.
 
My understanding few months ago was i would be able to place an order on Scarlet, Epic-S & Epic-X.
Fair enough,a few hand picked users can have few working prototypes running around.
Is it possible to move manufacturing to Germany?? :beatdeadhorse5:
 
James Brundige said:
I prefer knowing what's happening, and watching it unfold. And that knowledge has prevented me from blowing money on the wrong products in the mean time.
Click to expand...

To me, that's the most crucial part of how Red runs its business. It gives me a heads-up of what's coming. How would you feel if you'd just bought a cr@p load of Red Ones then next day Red announced Epic out of the blue? That's how the other manufacturers do it.
 
I don't think people are complaining about the upgrade path rather the timing? I love the announcements and transparency but it's only ever fun once you have it in hand, for the R1 people like me, the MX sounded great but the thought of trading to an EPIC was better, the R1 was in hand and it was exciting to see where it could go to be better...
If EPIC was in hand for the majority I'm sure it'd be the same...

We are all over the moon about RED Dragon I'm sure, considering how close it is to being possible given 2012 isn't long away and these days seem to be shorter/moving along quicker...

I'm sure most people paid to hear the announcement for putting their money down at NAB for after EPIC-X ships out...I don't think anyone would go just for a piece of information but rather to be first in queue...which is still possible, there is a while to go before NAB is over,

Hopefully when NAB is over Jannard or Jarred will do a post up on RED Dragon, obviously they can't go too deep but a bit of clear confirmed info would be nice, as well as on the other things like the 4K projector and REDRay progress etc.
 
Jiri Vrozina said:
My understanding few months ago was i would be able to place an order on Scarlet, Epic-S & Epic-X.
Fair enough,a few hand picked users can have few working prototypes running around.
Is it possible to move manufacturing to Germany?? :beatdeadhorse5:
Click to expand...

Also, Jim did post this. http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?57082-Bad-news...

I don't want to come off as a RED apologist, as I believe I'm fairly objective when it comes to these things. I just feel the expectations may be getting a bit too high, and maybe that is fueled by RED's passion and their desire to share some of their internal discoveries. I want SSDs for my R1. I can't get them. Doesn't stop me from using the R1. I want an Epic and I want a Scarlet. I can't get them. Doesn't stop me from shooting. If I didn't have a R1, I'd find something else to shoot on. I understand frustration that Scarlet has been in the works since 2009. I know people have saved their money for it. I know there is huge disappointment that RED has been unable to lock down specs and ship it. I guess I have learned that a product, in this case a camera, doesn't exist until I can get my hands on it. I can't plan projects based on a camera that I can't rent or buy. In the case of RED, they are the first ones to admit their track record for delivering on time is not great. But with R1, they did deliver. And that camera has earned many people money, made some people's dreams of shooting a movie come true, etc. Scarlet is delayed much longer than R1. For better or worse, the specs are far better than when the camera was first announced. Perhaps some will see that as the problem. A camera that has taken too long to get out of development. Fair enough.

I have to stand by the premise that it's in RED's best interest to deliver cameras. So based on that premise, if they were able to deliver Epic-X, Epic-S and Scarlets right now, they would. There are obviously factors that have prevented them from doing so up to this point. So, as a consumer there is not much we can do except wait for the greenlight from Jim that these are ready to go, orders are being accepted, and the cameras will deliver by X date. Until then, I think life goes on, there are projects that need to get done (on the best camera budget allows), scripts to be written, opportunity abounds.
 
I think that I will join the group of folks who are unhappy about Scarlet not being "announced" For Sale. I think that I will buy another camera from Panasonic or Sony just like I did a couple of years ago because it is the smart thing to do for me. I don't have $60k to spend on a camera with no glass and even if I did it is not the right camera for the work I do. Scarlett, seems to be "drifting" in rhetoric and pitch in another direction and perhaps Red is too. Can't fault them for that because as they grow as a company and the R and D department whips up new delights, so too does the Marketing department and their assessment of the biz out there. Lets face it, taking on the likes of Panasonic and Sony in the the "under $20K" bracket is no easy task... just ask JVC. Taking them on in the under $10K class is gonna be damn tough. But I know sh1t about selling cameras. What I can say from the stuff I read written by Jannard and Land is their hearts are in the right place and if it can be done and they can make a buck dong it, then it will be done. I mean lets face it, you want to make a buck and so do they ...fair is fair. Taking on the Arri class is one mean feat..So I am hanging in as a "cautious observer" and will keep my $10k handy just in case they pull a fast one on me. I have NEVER been a fan boy... ( I don't have the clothes for the job..more of a wrencher myself) but I still stand in total admiration of the BALLS it takes to do what RED is doing.
Brian
 
Jiri Vrozina said:
My understanding few months ago was i would be able to place an order on Scarlet, Epic-S & Epic-X.
Fair enough,a few hand picked users can have few working prototypes running around.
Is it possible to move manufacturing to Germany?? :beatdeadhorse5:
Click to expand...

What's the point? There are still supply chain issues from Japan.... no parts means no camera.... get it? You're just not listening.

And don't forget those "few handpicked users" paid over DOUBLE for the privilege. You can have an EPIC-M too if you pay for it.
 
One scenario to imagine (although unlikely I'm sure knowing how passionate Jim and the crew are) is a RED that only announces products when they are done and ready to ship. This is certainly one way that RED could avoid estimating delivery to their customers. And if problems happen (Japan) they would simply change plans internally without ever disappointing a customer. Rather than announcing a 4K projector, they show up on the forum and trade sites and announce it as available. All specs are in place, the product actually exists, it's ready to ship, has a price. Done. Add it to your cart on the RED store, have it shipped overnight, easy as can be. Only downside. You never saw it coming. Didn't have a way to plan for it.

I suppose the easy answer here is to say RED should be able to do both. They can announce products that are in development but they should have internal projections that are more accurate and allow them to hit their objectives more precisely. I'm not sure it's that simple. These guys have never come across as corporate bean counters. I see them more as the guys in the garage experimenting, seeing what sticks, changing on a dime. So, could they pull of both, I don't know. I have no idea how things are behind those walls, and will never pretend to. I'm also tempted to say that I would prefer the RED world I described above. But there's a part of me that likes the craziness of the current RED world. So, I don't really have an answer.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
One scenario to imagine (although unlikely I'm sure knowing how passionate Jim and the crew are) is a RED that only announces products when they are done and ready to ship. This is certainly one way that RED could avoid estimating delivery to their customers. And if problems happen (Japan) they would simply change plans internally without ever disappointing a customer. Rather than announcing a 4K projector, they show up on the forum and trade sites and announce it as available. All specs are in place, the product actually exists, it's ready to ship, has a price. Done. Add it to your cart on the RED store, have it shipped overnight, easy as can be. Only downside. You never saw it coming. Didn't have a way to plan for it.

I suppose the easy answer here is to say RED should be able to do both. They can announce products that are in development but they should have internal projections that are more accurate and allow them to hit their objectives more precisely. I'm not sure it's that simple. These guys have never come across as corporate bean counters. I see them more as the guys in the garage experimenting, seeing what sticks, changing on a dime. So, could they pull of both, I don't know. I have no idea how things are behind those walls, and will never pretend to. I'm also tempted to say that I would prefer the RED world I described above. But there's a part of me that likes the craziness of the current RED world. So, I don't really have an answer.
Click to expand...

Perhaps it would be better to have manufacturing subcontracted to someone else with manufacturing experience.
It is not one off....if it is not cameras it is EVF....
It is just not as easy possible to buy products from RED as from "others".
I mean "Hand Made Camera"....and to apply to be in CUE for that...please....it is 2011.

Sorry for that - jiri
 
Steve Sherrick said:
I suppose the question is, what do you qualify as big news?
Click to expand...

No, not really. It's not about that.

I do realize now that I'm the only one here to blame. I'm the one buying in to the RED hype. I'm the one that's disappointed right now.
I'm not disappointed because RED isn't going to purchase Leica, heck I couldn't care less about that. I'm not disappointed I can't put down a deposit for a possible purchase of X/S/F in the future. I'm not disappointed about anything announced that's not available for purchase by the masses within the next six months.

I'm disappointed that RED continues to announce future products whilst not delivering products already very delayed. There is no logic behind this but to create hype, and hype seems to be confused with marketing. It's like image vs identity. Identity is something genuine, something honest. Image is something created, something fabricated. I'm disappointed because it truly feels like they don't really care about the problems here and now. And as long as they don't deliver on products promised and products that is in short/no supply, there is a problem that needs focus. I'm disappointed because I thought they realized this, and took action a while back and worked on the obvious issues, and they probably did. But all of this is undermined by announcing and speculating on future products and dates on things still in development. I'm disappointed because I feel scared about being honest about my thoughts here in fear of getting reprimand or banned for doing so.

I know what readers are thinking, they announce this because it's good for the customers to know what's coming. "They don't want to be like Apple who turns their back on they guys with yesterdays product"
Well, with RED's unprecedented - more then generous upgrade policy I don't think this is really an issue.

Why is speculating on products still in development a bad idea? And not at all the same thing as being "open/transparent"

- Speculating creates unnecessary frustration when predictions go bad.
- Speculating may create the effect of people holding out on current products waiting for "the new and improved" and I think it has.
- Speculating done by the forum members or by RED - is just that... Speculating.

I really hope I'm missing the picture. But I really can't see being open about speculation as transparency. But it's a really good means of creating hype.
I truly don't think RED is in need of the hype. But desperately need sort out some obvious issues.

I understand that this is a VERY complicated process. If there is obvious errors in my reasoning and I acknowledge that there probably is, please feel free to fill in my logical gaps.
I know I might come across as emotional, but this is only because I really want RED be the awesome company they could be if they addressed the current issues before speculating about the future.
 
Worth a trip? Unfortunately, I'm not going be able to attend this year. That's a bummer, because NAB is a great opportunity to reconnect, or meet RED Team members, and people from the board, etc.... Play with the new toys, the gunner, the clutch, the etc.... And I have made so many wonderful friends attending. How do you put a value on that?

I have an "M", and I have to say again, the EPIC is a work of art, for the creation of art..... And you guy's are going to do a back flip when you get yours, very soon I hope.

When I heard the announcements today, I was thrilled!!!!

RED DRAGON? ROCK ON!!!! Omg, this is so Killer. RED is spoiling us, the customers so much, I'm afraid we are starting to take it for granted. There are many companies looking to out do RED, but this is just one more reason they can't. Talk about future proofing.

I have to say, RED TEAM is killing themselves, month after month.... And NAB is the party where they get to share all there hard work. And after what must be a brutal day, to come back to the hotel, and read some negativity, or disappointment........ siiiiggggghhhhh.

I wish I was there in person to say.....

Thanks to JIM, and the TEAM, for all the hard work and generosity.

RED RULES! Pass it on....
 
Greg M said:
You mean that these people spent thousands of dollars to go to NAB to hear "big news"? Have they not heard of the internet? Its this new thing where you can hear big news from the comfort of your living room with little or no cost. But seriously, if anyone spent thousands of dollars to go to NAB just to hear an announcement from Red and they are disappointed, then they are just foolish.
Click to expand...

I'm in no position to say that people listening to Jim are foolish.
 
Andreas, I don't think you are out of line in making these points, and offering your point of view. Hopefully that is what these forums are for. And I think you are attempting to do so in a respectful manner, so I can't see you getting banned or on the bad side of anyone at RED for making your points.

I have been around since the beginning, a paying customer since 2006. I would consider Ted, Jim, Jarred, and many others at RED to be friends. I helped organize Reduser NAB events over the past few years. I would be a complete phony and not in the least bit objective if I didn't acknowledge that delivery of product, in particular accessories, have been a problem for RED. As I mentioned earlier, I am unable to get SSDs or module for R1. Is it frustrating? Sure. Does announcing new products bother me, knowing Epic-X hasn't shipped yet? Not really, because it means development is ongoing. If the development of new products was delaying production of accessories and Epic that might be a different story, but I have no evidence that's the case.

So, the bottom line: RED's goal (and I believe it is) is to get caught up on accessories backorder, as well as begin shipping Epic-X to Stage 2 as soon as possible. Then they have to move to Stage 3, take orders, and then ship those cameras. And on it goes until they are shipping cameras to new customers. If this isn't a priority right now I would be shocked. It has to be. Announcing these other things is important for laying out the roadmap, which is typical for NAB. But in terms of it having a profound affect on delivery of current products, I would hope not.

So, hopefully Jim will fill everyone in on where things are at once NAB wraps up. If anyone knows where things stand in terms of getting product out the door, it's Jim. Everyone else is just speculating.
 
Andreas Fernbrant said:
No, not really. It's not about that.

I do realize now that I'm the only one here to blame. I'm the one buying in to the RED hype. I'm the one that's disappointed right now.
I'm not disappointed because RED isn't going to purchase Leica, heck I couldn't care less about that. I'm not disappointed I can't put down a deposit for a possible purchase of X/S/F in the future. I'm not disappointed about anything announced that's not available for purchase by the masses within the next six months.

I'm disappointed that RED continues to announce future products whilst not delivering products already very delayed. There is no logic behind this but to create hype, and hype seems to be confused with marketing. It's like image vs identity. Identity is something genuine, something honest. Image is something created, something fabricated. I'm disappointed because it truly feels like they don't really care about the problems here and now. And as long as they don't deliver on products promised and products that is in short/no supply, there is a problem that needs focus. I'm disappointed because I thought they realized this, and took action a while back and worked on the obvious issues, and they probably did. But all of this is undermined by announcing and speculating on future products and dates on things still in development. I'm disappointed because I feel scared about being honest about my thoughts here in fear of getting reprimand or banned for doing so.

I know what readers are thinking, they announce this because it's good for the customers to know what's coming. "They don't want to be like Apple who turns their back on they guys with yesterdays product"
Well, with RED's unprecedented - more then generous upgrade policy I don't think this is really an issue.

Why is speculating on products still in development a bad idea? And not at all the same thing as being "open/transparent"

- Speculating creates unnecessary frustration when predictions go bad.
- Speculating may create the effect of people holding out on current products waiting for "the new and improved" and I think it has.
- Speculating done by the forum members or by RED - is just that... Speculating.

I really hope I'm missing the picture. But I really can't see being open about speculation as transparency. But it's a really good means of creating hype.
I truly don't think RED is in need of the hype. But desperately need sort out some obvious issues.

I understand that this is a VERY complicated process. If there is obvious errors in my reasoning and I acknowledge that there probably is, please feel free to fill in my logical gaps.
I know I might come across as emotional, but this is only because I really want RED be the awesome company they could be if they addressed the current issues before speculating about the future.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your post Andreas. I think you are stating in a very level headed way what many would like to say.

It all really comes down to managing expectations. Jim set up an expectation that was very high when he stated that the surprise would be worth the trip. There are many other things that make this NAB worth the trip. But as of today the news so far revealed from Red just doesn't measure up in my opinion. Future development promises don't hold a candle to actually delivering on current ones. Maybe the next few days will redeem the disappointment of today. We will see.

I am here at NAB and the vibe I got when I was at the booth seemed very subdued. When viewing the Red Cinema movie we were told that footage they expected to have to show fell through. Makes me wonder if other things did too. I'm guessing the Red team doesn't like this either.
 
Jiri Vrozina said:
Perhaps it would be better to have manufacturing subcontracted to someone else with manufacturing experience.
It is not one off....if it is not cameras it is EVF....
It is just not as easy possible to buy products from RED as from "others".
I mean "Hand Made Camera"....and to apply to be in CUE for that...please....it is 2011.

Sorry for that - jiri
Click to expand...

For those of us who know something about ASICS and doing systems, that is kind of a naive statement.
 
If the big announcement was the Dragon or the 4k Projector, then that's the announcement. Jim said it's worth the trip, and for some that news definitely is, but keep in mind that RED can't please everyone. And NAB still isn't over so instead of getting upset and mad, just wait a little bit longer.
 
I got to say thanks. I also got to check out all the cool new stuff. Said hi to Jim and Jarred and Stuart. Being in the film exhibition business I'm personally really stoked about red ray. It will be truly transformative. So now I have a price and a shipping window. The price is less than half of what a Dolby server costs. the ship window is about a month longer than it would take to get a dolby box. thats Pretty sweet if you ask me. If there is really a projector in the works and the price point is somewhere within the ratio of the red ray price vs. it's competitors, it will also be transformative. This technology takes time. Wait for it. Anyway, I'm not trying to sound like a fanboy or apologist, in the end it's not the gear or the camera, it's the story and the artists involved in capturing that story.

Ps: I still want my sensor/lens mount/Ethernet barebones camera system. modular is the future.
 
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