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My Dragon Thoughts

Christopher Probst

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I'd like to take a moment to speak about my impressions on the Dragon and Red in general. Some of you may recall my rather rocky introduction to this forum after I wrote a rather critical analysis of my working methodologies with the Red One for American Cinematographer magazine, pre Mysterium-X chip. I was in NO WAY a popular character among you here. If you doubt that, there were TWO separate threads flambéing me on here, calling me a hack, or just an idiot. Look them up, highly entertaining.

However, I felt I had thoroughly researched my issues and I stood by my accessment of the camera at that time. I STILL stand behind that article's stance for the camera as it existed at that time. In fact, the techniques I learned that enabled me to control the Red One's imagery still influences ALL of my exposure methodology for ALL of my digital photography.

It goes without saying that I demand the best from my cameras, but in turn I likewise feel it is my responsibility to really LEARN a camera inside and out. Otherwise, I really don't know WHAT the fuck I'm talking about at all, do I? Even within my hard look at the Red One, I freely admitted that I had produced some of my favorite imagery I have ever created with it. But then, first with the MX upgrade and then with the release of the Epic, Red took quantum leaps forward as a manufacturer and an innovator of ditigal motion picture imaging. And there was a step-function change in my mindset with Red cameras.

To say that I fell immediately in love with the Epic is an understatement. Which brings me to my point. I've been fortunate to spend some time with the Dragon sensor and I can enthusiastically say that Red has just advanced another order of magnitude yet again with this technology.

I have been equally fortunate that several of my top directors that I work with also happen to be huge advocates for Red cameras. So I get to shoot my Epic on almost every project with them. But even the highest level directors get pressured from agencies, clients, studios, whatever to shoot with the Alexa or whatever camera they feel is better suited than an Epic. We have had to go to battle many times trying to extoll the virtues of the Epic camera, only to get thrown, "Well we like the highlights on the Alexa better..." or "POST is requesting Alexa..." Really? What post person in their right mind would lobby for less resolution?

Today, ALL of those arguments end. The images I have tested, analyzed and will continue to rabidly shoot on the Dragon trump ANY camera on the market. Dynamic range, tonal reproduction, resolution, frame rates, form factor, weight, modularity... There is nothing that can touch this camera in ANY of those categories.

So you're bitching about Red taking their time to deliver what should be considered IMPOSSIBLE? Relax and give them the faith and respect that they very much rightly deserve... Go and try and gripe to the President of Sony... Let me know when that happens.

I have proven in public record that I don't blow smoke up someone's ass... In fact, I kinda put my neck on the chopping block calling Red out in the printed pages of one of the most esteemed journals of cinematography and could have earned their eternal mistrust for those actions. Instead, Red has shown great character in accepting me into their community knowing full well I could turn and bite that hand at any time.

My point: The Dragon is THE game changer... Stand back, be patient and take a deep breath because things are about to get real intense and you won't come up for air for probably a few years. This is clearly a case of be careful of what you wish for... You just might get it...

Mark my words.
 
Everything is about IMAGE QUALITY (IQ).

We already have got a little sniff on Dragon files and were excited about Dragon's IQ.

RED definitely needs a new marketing strategy that should get more world's famous cinematographers involved to use Dragon.

Also must repeat now again one of my old idea about a sort of partnering, acquiring or whatever with Leica in a way to get Leica R lenses production revamped with a possibility of the rehousing at PL mount.

That production can stay in South of Germany as well.

Call it "THE TWO RED DOTS PARTNERSHIP" !!!

Why Leica R?

They are lenses with a sort of unique and beautiful vintage Leica look that can cover FF35mm that means 6K Dragon no problem.

They are lightweight even after rehousing on PL mount.

There are Leica R set of primes (from 15mm to 800mm) and also there are three extraordinary Leica R short zooms available 21-35mm f/3.5, 35-70mm f/2.8, 70-180mm f/2.8.

That means Dragon could get very nice optically attractive, lightweight and affordable lens set to cover 6K sensor size.

So the smallest cine digital camera makes best image quality and biggest pictures with Leica optically excellent, lightweight and affordable 6K+ lenses.
 
For those of you whom are reading and just dont know about Christopher ..

Ive Known and worked with Christopher over 14 years ago on film sets when I ran with a mentor of mine by the name of Joe Ozborne

Today On sets.
-I run into guys whom understand not just the technology that goes into equipment but the more profound insides of the sensor and camera.
-I also from time to time work for and or run into guys whom are optical techies digging deep into the world of lenses and glass, way deep.
-And I love working for guys whom are masters of lighting, shading and painting with lights using colors, tempetures, intensities, and the colors of what they are shooting to capture just exquiset images. ( I pay attention to what they are doing and its a freaking cool thing to watch them interact with their gaffers go to paint working with the lights )
It seems like this is a natural art form for them as they just set up a light and poof its a captivating image, pre color corrected.
They make it look too easy.

But now here is the real cool part, when you find the RARE guys whom know this all together, can process it and effectively optimize all the tools at hand this to achieve the results they do. Award winning results.
Its a deep understanding on multiple levels
Chris is a hands on guy in his work, he physically gets into it moving the lights and equipment himself.
He gets it all, its nutty.
His IQ on these subjects is on a level I highly respect and just trip out on.
Hes also damn honest when it comes to this kind of stuff so take it from me.
And Dont get the wrong impression. I dont get to talk to him at all anymore, hes not my friend or anything like that,
Im being very real. I just know THIS GUY KNOWS HIS SHIT, hes crazy good.
So if he says Dragons a Game Changer.

OH SHIT
FUCK YA im INSANELY ECSTATIC he I believe and gets me to jump up a few notches on this Dragon excitement.
I wait and relax till its ready to roll.

Cool post
Probst.
 
" or "POST is requesting Alexa..."

heh heh

you are right.

yes - we hear this often, too. still nonsense. all this people do not realize that there are even cheap Apps (i mean FCPX hehh hehh) that can edit Raw Files of Epic on an macbook pro. for commercials this is a solid workflow - edit - EDL - Da Vinci. and so much more space to stabilize, scale, ...
some stuck in the past.
can´t wait for my dragon and the new mac pro ... will be a nice new world for everyone (from high budget to independent filmer)
 
...

Today, ALL of those arguments end. The images I have tested, analyzed and will continue to rabidly shoot on the Dragon trump ANY camera on the market. Dynamic range, tonal reproduction, resolution, frame rates, form factor, weight, modularity... There is nothing that can touch this camera in ANY of those categories.

So you're bitching about Red taking their time to deliver what should be considered IMPOSSIBLE? Relax and give them the faith and respect that they very much rightly deserve...
....

My point: The Dragon is THE game changer... Stand back, be patient and take a deep breath because things are about to get real intense and you won't come up for air for probably a few years. This is clearly a case of be careful of what you wish for... You just might get it...

.

... hehe, well put ... :-)
 
my Epic M "Beethoven" will blow out a new symphony when it has the Dragon heart inside :violin::thumbup1::hurray:
 
Had my hands on a Dragon for the first time yesterday as well.

I have to say, echoing Mr. Probst sentiments - this thing is intense.

Interestingly enough there is even so much information just off the Tap viewing in RedlogFilm that you can achieve insane results live grading with Pomfort LiveGrade or Technicolor DP Lights - this is something I wasn't a huge fan of with Epic-MX, but will likely start making more of an appearance on sets with the support to do so.

Dragon update will be money well spent IMO and there is no question now that I am going that route.
 
thanks for sharing your perspective christopher... always welcome to my ears.
for what it's worth, sorry you've had difficulties.

sanjin... too funny, how do you always find a way to circle around to how awesome leica lenses are? stoppp, unless you want to lend me some :)

annnd on that note, if anybody wants to lend me $10k... hehe

and to pull a sanjin, i was kinda thinkin i'd put my next $10k towards the red projector, where's that at?
 
My point: The Dragon is THE game changer...
How so? Can it get itself up at 3:00am and go shoot a sunrise, do a 12 hour day, get drunk in the bar with the PA, wake up in the wrong room and then go do it all over again?

I trust your opinion Christopher and have always liked reading your posts, but game changer? No such thing. Mark my words.
 
How so? Can it get itself up at 3:00am and go shoot a sunrise, do a 12 hour day, get drunk in the bar with the PA, wake up in the wrong room and then go do it all over again?

I trust your opinion Christopher and have always liked reading your posts, but game changer? No such thing. Mark my words.

Maybe you don't see the world from my perspective or have the same wishes for what a camera would do. I thought I made it pretty obvious why the Dragon was a game changer. There is no other camera that hits each benchmark I listed, not to mention tops the list on each one.

Resolution.... 6144 horizontal. Only the F65 comes close but with some squirly demosaic schemes and blatant deception in marketing resolution claims. The F65 CAN produce nice looking images too, but is the size of a truck and very little customizable modularity.

Dynamic range... I have freely admitted Arri were smart about their strategy to go after dynamic range as there #1 attribute in the Alexa to win over old-school film guys. Now I never personally had issue with my Epic's dynamic range because I'm super specific in how I control my lighting and exposure strategies. But just talking the qualities of highlights, Alexa did have a slight edge over the MX sensor. But again, at the expense of size, weight, modularity and most importantly, resolution. Not even going to mention cost, upgradabiity, form factor... Oh wait, I just did. The Dragon achieves Alexa style highlight roll off but with over TWICE the resolution... AND half the size, 1/3 the weight, 1/3 the price...

Form factor... Show me any another system as insanely configurable as the Epic/Dragon. Maybe we don't see it clearly since we see them daily and have become jaded, but these fucking things are transformers! The number of different footprints and silhouettes you can achieve are literally only limited by you imagination.... Sure we can strap additional shit on an Alexa or F65, but how small or light can you go with a complete functioning, untethered camera? With all of the modules even on the market today, this camera is everything and the kitchen sink. Want a full blown, fully accessorized production camera for a dolly based feature... Sure, add a Pro I/O and a Proxy module. Need a global shutter? Sure, slap on a motion mount... Want to go handheld, cool, strip the body down to the essentials... want to hang it from some freakish circus performers testicles, I have a Carbon Dragon for that too.

You know what, I'm going to stop now... I'm annoying myself breaking this down because at some point if you don't get it, I don't WANT you to get it. I really do prefer all my competition out there shooting Alexa. So by all means continue to NOT see the same reality I do. I know what I want and need out of a digital motion picture camera. My wildest dreams have been answered.

For the rest of you, this is and will remain THE camera to beat for a good long while. React accordingly.
 
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Chris:

Too funny. I enjoy your work so looking forward to seeing some of your Dragon footage.

While I wait for my Dragon upgrade like everyone else, I'm still in beast-mode with my Epic; what a camera still!


Maybe you don't see the world from my perspective or have the same wishes for what a camera would do. I thought I made it pretty obvious why the Dragon was a game changer. There is no other camera that hits each benchmark I listed, not to mention tops the list on each one.

Resolution.... 6144 horizontal. Only the F65 comes close but with some squirly demosaic schemes and blatant deception in marketing resolution claims. The F65 CAN produce nice looking images too, but is the size of a truck and very little customizable modularity.

Dynamic range... I have freely admitted Arri were smart about their strategy to go after dynamic range as there #1 attribute in the Alexa to win over old-school film guys. Now I never personally had issue with my Epic's dynamic range because I'm super specific in how I control my lighting and exposure strategies. But just talking the qualities of highlights, Alexa did have a slight edge over the MX sensor. But again, at the expense of size, weight, modularity and most importantly, resolution. Not even going to mention cost, upgradabiity, form factor... Oh wait, I just did. The Dragon achieves Alexa style highlight roll off but with over TWICE the resolution... AND half the size, 1/3 the weight, 1/3 the price...

Form factor... Show me any another system as insanely configurable as the Epic/Dragon. Maybe we don't see it clearly since we see them daily and have become jaded, but these fucking things are transformers! The number of different footprints and silhouettes you can achieve are literally only limited by you imagination.... Sure we can strap additional shit on an Alexa or F65, but how small or light can you go with a complete functioning, untethered camera? With all of the modules even on the market today, this camera is everything and the kitchen sink. Want a full blown, fully accessorized production camera for a dolly based feature... Sure, add a Pro I/O and a Proxy module. Need a global shutter? Sure, slap on a motion mount... Want to go handheld, cool, strip the body down to the essentials... want to hang it from some freakish circus performers testicles, I have a Carbon Dragon for that too.

You know what, I'm going to stop now... I'm annoying myself breaking this down because at some point if you don't get it, I don't WANT you to get it. I really do prefer all my competition out there shooting Alexa. So by all means continue to NOT see the same reality I do. I know what I want and need out of a digital motion picture camera. My wildest dreams have been answered.

For the rest of you, this is and will remain THE camera to beat for a good long while. React accordingly.
 
Well said teacher.

patiently waiting for my dragon
 
Maybe you don't see the world from my perspective or have the same wishes for what a camera would do. I thought I made it pretty obvious why the Dragon was a game changer. There is no other camera that hits each benchmark I listed, not to mention tops the list on each one.

Resolution.... 6144 horizontal. Only the F65 comes close but with some squirly demosaic schemes and blatant deception in marketing resolution claims. The F65 CAN produce nice looking images too, but is the size of a truck and very little customizable modularity.

Dynamic range... I have freely admitted Arri were smart about their strategy to go after dynamic range as there #1 attribute in the Alexa to win over old-school film guys. Now I never personally had issue with my Epic's dynamic range because I'm super specific in how I control my lighting and exposure strategies. But just talking the qualities of highlights, Alexa did have a slight edge over the MX sensor. But again, at the expense of size, weight, modularity and most importantly, resolution. Not even going to mention cost, upgradabiity, form factor... Oh wait, I just did. The Dragon achieves Alexa style highlight roll off but with over TWICE the resolution... AND half the size, 1/3 the weight, 1/3 the price...

Form factor... Show me any another system as insanely configurable as the Epic/Dragon. Maybe we don't see it clearly since we see them daily and have become jaded, but these fucking things are transformers! The number of different footprints and silhouettes you can achieve are literally only limited by you imagination.... Sure we can strap additional shit on an Alexa or F65, but how small or light can you go with a complete functioning, untethered camera? With all of the modules even on the market today, this camera is everything and the kitchen sink. Want a full blown, fully accessorized production camera for a dolly based feature... Sure, add a Pro I/O and a Proxy module. Need a global shutter? Sure, slap on a motion mount... Want to go handheld, cool, strip the body down to the essentials... want to hang it from some freakish circus performers testicles, I have a Carbon Dragon for that too.

You know what, I'm going to stop now... I'm annoying myself breaking this down because at some point if you don't get it, I don't WANT you to get it. I really do prefer all my competition out there shooting Alexa. So by all means continue to NOT see the same reality I do. I know what I want and need out of a digital motion picture camera. My wildest dreams have been answered.

For the rest of you, this is and will remain THE camera to beat for a good long while. React accordingly.

Christopher, you have completely missed my point. I have no doubt that Dragon is all the things you say, no doubt at all. But it is still just a camera and thus just one part in the chain to making great images. Same as before.
 
Great posts Chris. THANKS!
 
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