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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Motion Control : Kessler CineDrive vs Dito-Gear Evolution

Paul J Steinberg said:
Yes, if memory serves, I had a SFH-30 with a 4 axis control box but it turns out I needed a SFH-50 and the 8 axis controller + the sync box if I wanted to do multi-pass with any accuracy and I think it needed a PC with serial port. The system as it was ran about $30K but those upgrades were pushing it over $50K. I am a little soft on the details but that is how I remember it. The monorail system they show has waaaaaaaaay to much flex in it to be used for anything other than a DLSR and stopmotion/timelapse. That upgrade cost didn't include a new track that would have had to have been designed and fabricated.
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Just so I understand, could you please show me a link to a ditogear head or slider that is more solid than the mark robert stuff. I might sound like a Mark roberts fan boy but when I look at the other stuff it's like kids toys to me. And I see no other competing head in the SHF-30 size that is even half as solid and sliders I could not speak for but again you need to keep your camera weight low and close to track and also have it all in balance. Then off course speed is a factor. Basically to make highspeed moves on a mono rail with a low weight epic you need something that is at least so heavy so two people can not lift it. I would recon 80 kg or so. if weight is lower you kind of need to have things bolted to the ground, still then the build would need to be as solid steel. I see no such tracks around. All I see is flimsy low weight flexing stuff that distribute all kinds of bad vibrations.
 
If Cinedrive had a live controller system for the head - especially an intuitive fluid-head-like remotestick control, or gear-head-like double wheel control, like many other systems - then the system would start to enter no-brainer territory. As it is now it seems more exclusively designed with timelapse in mind, and I almost never need to do a time-lapse, because A) almost no scripts call for any B) It's very hard to integrate human presence/actors into a timelapse and C) It's become heavily associated with "Vimeo-kiddies" and thus has become a bot of a no-no in my world. So... For the twice a year I do time-lapse, not worth it, but if it became a general use easy technohead, easier than a joystick with the Kessler old system we have now, then I would say "great -does enough different things that I can amortize it fats enough". As it is now you cannot use the Cinedrive head as a live head at all, and I for one would get better value and more frequent use from the older head.
 
Hey Bjorn....and I hope I don't sound like a Kessler fanboy. I'm completely agnostic when it comes to gear. It's not my flag, not my religion, it's just a tool. Most of what Kessler make is of no use to me but I'll credit them with some good design with the Cinedrive.

The SFH-30 system that was sold to me after lengthy discussions on how I would use it came with their monorail as a slider/dolly and it...is...brutal. It flexes like crazy. This is what they packaged with the system and while it is supposed to support at 15kg payload, anything other than a DLSR causes it to wobble. I'm not kidding, even my C300 caused wobble and if you look on their web site the SFH-30 is still bundled with the monorail as a slider. I had my Epic rigged with Pro I/O, onboard LCD, no battery, 50mm prime and mattebox and it came in at around 10kg, 5kg below the supposed maximum payload for the system and I was afraid to walk out of arms reach of the rig. The servo motor that drove the slider didn't seem to have enough torque and would jerk at times (usually when changing speed) and when combined with the flex of the rail the shot was ruined. The stepper motor had the torque but it was painfully slow and really loud.

Kessler have their Cineslider (https://www.kesslercrane.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=KESSLER_CINESLIDER) and Shuttlepod (http://www.kesslercrane.com/shuttle-pod-s/87.htm) for sliders, pay no attention to the guy in the hoodie with the backwards baseball cap, it is a decent system. My Epic (no I/O), Ultraprime, no battery, LCD and lens motors are definitely the max payload of these sliders. I'd say they're pretty stable, not rock solid but workable and they absolutely outperform the stability of the MR monorail at a fraction of the cost.

Same can be said for the Cinedrive head. It's solid but that's not to say the SFH-head isn't built like a tank as well. When you look at the precision, the Cinedrive head has been more precise than the SFH-30 in configuration that it (the SFH-30) was delivered to me. These are just my observations. I had the MRMOCO system here for over two months before packing it up and sending it back. I was Skype'ing with them constantly, put in hours and hours of testing and I read the FLAIR manual from cover to cover three times so it wasn't from any lack to trying. Eventually someone from their shop chimed in on an email and explained that SFH stands for Stop Frame Head...it was never designed to do all the realtime moves I was trying to accomplish. At that point I packed it up and sent it back.

If motion control is my business I wouldn't be using either one of these systems. I'd go for the big guns like the MR Milo or the Bot&Dolly Scout/Iris they can do anything. Having actually owned both a SFH-30 and a Cinedrive I'm just saying the Cinedrive is as good in some aspects and better in others at a fraction of the cost.
 
It's a fun time for motion timelapse and there's a lot of new technology out. I saw mention of camBLOCK and I thought I'd let everyone know a bit about the gear we make.

Five years ago, the creator of camBLOCK, Stewart Mayer, was a cinematographer that wanted to add motion timelapse to a project he was working on. At that time, there was nothing in the market. Luckly, Stew had a machine shop, apprenticed under a Navy master machinist, and was just crazy enough, so he built a DIY system and posted it online. Since then, we've launched camBLOCK as a business and have build portable motion control rigs that have been used on IMAX 3D films, Discovery Channel, National Geographic, and BBC TV networks.

We've got two products, both that work for timelapse as well as realtime and stop-motion. Both can handle the weight of DSLRs and RED Epic

[TABLE="width: 600, align: center"]
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[TD="align: center"]camBLOCK Modular
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[TD="align: center"]camBLOCK Adventure[/TD]
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[TD]Our flagship system that makes use of modular motion blocks to perform a variety of functions:

Pan/Tilt/Dolly/Turntable/Fixture mover. We've even had folks build custom jibs and lens controllers with the blocks - although, we make a much more refined lensBLOCK now.
[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD](Photo of a prototype) Our up and coming ultra-portable motion control system. We've had a lot requests for an even more portable system, and with the explosion of the DSLR market, it just made sense.

The goal with Adventure is to fit a pan/tilt/dolly system in a backpack along with DSLR and iPad for access to really remote places, and easier access to not so remote places. We launched on Kickstarter this April at NAB and will be shipping by the end of the year. This week we started taking pre-orders on our website.[/TD]
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I've recently joined the forum and I'll be around to answer any questions folks have on our systems. We have a lot of camBLOCK owners who are also RED users and the systems work together really well (and share a color palette).

--
Nick McCarthy
camBLOCK General Manager
 
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I'm investigating the purchase of a motion control system for our Scarlet and ran across this thread. It seems like the 3 main options (in the sub $20k price range) are CineDrive, DitoGear, and camBlock. Cinedrive and Ditogear are about half the price of camBlock. CineDrive has no realtime controls. Also, CineDrive is not in stock and Kesler can give no timeline for when it will be in stock, which is really strange considering this product has been on the market for over a year. The person I talked to on the phone didn't seem to really care that it wasn't in stock nor that he couldn't give me any indication when it would be in stock... which gave me a negative feeling about Kesler's customer service.

It seems that camBlock Modular package is the best option from what I've read, but the significantly higher price makes it a non-starter for me. Even the camBlock Adventure package is more expensive than the others and not yet available.

I read most of this thread and couldn't find someone that had used both the CineDrive and DitoGear system and was able to offer comparison in a number of areas. Has anyone used both systems and can offer insite?
 
The kessler guys have great customer service. They've been releasing sets of them as they build them. The customer service person probably just didn't know when the next sale date was going to be. if you email eric he would probably let you know. I've been told that realtime control is coming but no hint at when. I'm looking forward to that myself. I can't say anything about the other companies as I've only tried the cinedrive but it's been great for me so far.
 
Michael Gyori said:
...Also, CineDrive is not in stock and Kesler can give no timeline for when it will be in stock, which is really strange considering this product has been on the market for over a year. The person I talked to on the phone didn't seem to really care that it wasn't in stock nor that he couldn't give me any indication when it would be in stock... which gave me a negative feeling about Kesler's customer service...
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Sorry if the sales team member's response gave you a negative impression. I can promise you it was not a case of not caring or wanting to give you information, but a case of not having a definitive date to tell you. The last thing we want to do is give you a date, and set your expectations, and then not be able meet those expectations. Currently we are at the mercy of a 3rd party for a critical component, so as soon we have a firm date for availability again, we will announce it. The estimate was 4-6 weeks about two weeks ago, but we are doing everything possible to make that shorter. Please trust me, we want the CineDrive system available and ready to ship for everyone as quickly as possible. Thanks!
 
Thanks Chad and Chris. With the indication that there will be real-time controls for the CineDrive, I'm leaning to it over the DitoGear as I'm in Canada and I'd rather deal with an american company than one in eastern Europe. I'm definitely keen on buying from a company with good customer service. Dropping $7k on a motion control system for me is a large chunk of change and I want a responsive and helpful company to deal with any issues.

I guess, my only reservation is that real-time controls for CineDrive could be a long way away (wasn't CineDrive first announced in 2010 NAB?). It would be really nice to use the expensive head for jib work.

Also, can CineDrive be used on anything longer than the 5" CineSlider? Can any of the CineDrive motors dolly a loaded Red Scarlet without preventing the capture of usuable audio nearby?

Thanks Chris for some numbers regarding the back-order situation for CineDrive. If I decide to purchase it, should I put my name in now? Will Kesler have enough units to cover those waiting in it's next shipment? Which components are the bottleneck?

Thanks for any info.
 
Chad Lancaster said:
There is a joystick planned for the cinedrive, i've bugged Eric about it many times. Hopefully it's coming soon.
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Better a "pointing stick" that becomes like a virtual fluid-head - than a joystick. It should have a bowl, so I can connect it to a tripod (or better still, sit on top of my existing fluid head I know and love). Fluid-head control is second nature to all of us, using a joystick is not and consumes a lot of takes to get good moves. Gear-head emulations (used by many top techno heads) is another highly desirable option.

No camera op alive would ever prefer a joystick to a "pointing stick that points where we push it like a fluid head does" or a gear head-like dual wheel (which grows on you fast after you get used to it). Joysticks are a really clunky way to orient a camera in real-time. I would be surprised if any single camera op you talk to would ever disagree with what I say here.
 
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Welcome to the forum Nick. You already know I'm a fan of camBlock!

Nick McCarthy said:
It's a fun time for motion timelapse and there's a lot of new technology out. I saw mention of camBLOCK and I thought I'd let everyone know a bit about the gear we make.

Five years ago, the creator of camBLOCK, Stewart Mayer, was a cinematographer that wanted to add motion timelapse to a project he was working on. At that time, there was nothing in the market. Luckly, Stew had a machine shop, apprenticed under a Navy master machinist, and was just crazy enough, so he built a DIY system and posted it online. Since then, we've launched camBLOCK as a business and have build portable motion control rigs that have been used on IMAX 3D films, Discovery Channel, National Geographic, and BBC TV networks.


I've recently joined the forum and I'll be around to answer any questions folks have on our systems. We have a lot of camBLOCK owners who are also RED users and the systems work together really well (and share a color palette).

--
Nick McCarthy
camBLOCK General Manager
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Michael - Yes, we have our modular Shuttle Pod system which can be extended indefinitely using 4' rail extensions. Availability of CineDrive should not be a problem. As soon as we have a more firm availability/shipping date, we will begin taking pre-orders through the website.

In regards to live motion / analog type controls, we have been discussing and looking into several different options to make available in the future. I'm not going to make any wild promises in regards to exactly what will be coming, but I will say that we understand that all operators are different and have their own preferences for controlling the camera, and we want to make our system the most accommodating and versatile. Thanks
 
I guess it depends on the level of precision you want. I own the Kessler system and they've made huge advancements with their software/firmware in the few months that their product has been on the market. Neither the Dittogear or the Kessler are genlocked to the camera so you'll never be 'pixel perfect' on the moves but you can easily adjust the layers in AE, it just takes time. I did a four layer real-time composite in a demo video that I linked on the first page of this thread. No greenscreen but it did take about 2 days of AE tweaking to line everything up but much of that time was due to a bug in the firmware that was causing drift between keyframes.

I'm not sure which system you've used in the past but the one thing I'd caution about these systems is that they have a relatively slow dolly speed. The Kessler system has a variety of motors that you can swap out. The motor is the same but the gear ratios are different. If you want more torque to pull a heavier camera, you lose speed. If you have a lighter camera and don't need as much torque you can get more speed. I find the Epic with Ultraprime, motors, mattebox will max out the payload capacity of the system and I need the motor with the most torque to get smooth start/stops. Of course that then means the system isn't capable of moving too quickly.

For timelapse the Kessler is brilliant! Very easy to build the moves. Ipad control is great for simple moves (for real detailed moves I find working from a PC is easier) and you can preview your move in real time, then switch it to timelapse and let it capture for an hour. The final move will play back just as you previewed it.

Hope that helps.
 
Our camBLOCK Modular system has been popular for VFX work. We offer a "Fast Dolly" which can move a Red Epic at up to 2.5ft/sec, and we have a 3-axis joystick that can be used for real-time control. We also have a trigger that can start/stop record on the Epic, and trigger stills with the Epic or DSLRs.

With our upcoming camBLOCK Adventure, we're planning to integrate frame syncing. Without some type of sync or external trigger, repeated moves from any motion control system can be vary by up to 1/2 frame.
 
Hi there.

I'm just searching for a motion controlled rig for my epic, and still don't know what to buy. Cinedrive or Ditogear. I'd prefer dito because they are located in Europe, but can any of them use a circular slider? All the time the slider must be a straight line? Somehow I can adapt it to use a circular track? And maybe a longer slider? Like 15-20 m or so?

I have an idea for a music video and it would be great to have a circular movement.

Thanks to all.
 
I've been going back and forth and around in circles looking at slider options. Even within the Kessler camp I'm finding it tough to work out how much to spend and on what!

At the moment the Shuttle Pod system is really appealing - it's versatility and travel friendliness looks great. Where I'm really struggling is deciding whether to go
(1)
analogue with the elektradrive package providing control of one axis
or
(2)
going the full deal with the CineDrive 3 axis system

or something in between, like the CineDrive 1 axis - then with the option to add the other two axis later???

too many choices! be great to hear how everyone is going with their rigs
 
I own a CineDrive and am very very pleased with it and the progress they are making in software updates its awesome. Havent tried Dito or camblock so cant say which one is better but for stopmotion (what i was using it) CineDrive was perfect.
And all the guys are really friendly and sometimes respond even on weekends on FB to help you out with a problem...
 
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