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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Motion Control : Kessler CineDrive vs Dito-Gear Evolution

Just a vote for Kessler here. We have a been a long standing user of Cineslider and have a pan and tilt V2 now. We are not US based but Kessler get kit to us with in a couple of days with good customer service. The environments we work give the kit a hard time and we have had 100% reliability. We are using the Oracle controller rather than Cinedrive and hope to upgrade to Cinedrive shortly. We have happy customers.

We have some colleagues here who use Camblock who speak highly of the system.
 
Just wanted to give an update on analog controls for CineDrive, now that I can provide a better estimate. We are currently working on prototypes for the CineDrive controls (joystick, jog wheel, focus wheel) that we plan on showing at NAB this year, with production coming soon after the show. Thanks
 
Chris Beller said:
Just wanted to give an update on analog controls for CineDrive, now that I can provide a better estimate. We are currently working on prototypes for the CineDrive controls (joystick, jog wheel, focus wheel) that we plan on showing at NAB this year, with production coming soon after the show. Thanks
Click to expand...

WOW That will be AWESOME!!!!!!!!! (Can I buy head now, and have it work with controls? Or will this require a new head?)

By jog wheel do you mean like a gear head wheel? Really, really useful would be a stick that works like a pointer/virtual fluid head (much more useful than a joystick which is extremely hard to operate well).

I must say my experiences with Kessler gear and customer service has been stellar - I'm also really happy to support a company that hires workers in North America at a living wage rather than exploiting barely paid people the developing world. I met some of their factory floor workers at NAB - they were really happy, proud, and felt like a family. My parents always taught me "you vote with your money as much as at the ballot box".

Yes their marketing is aimed at the 'Phillip Bloom set' (I can't blame them - that's where the numbers are) but that doesn't mean their stuff doesn't also meet the standards of high-end productions.
 
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Bjorn,

You make some really good points here. If you really want to seriously do multi pass move for VFX plates with any kind of precision then Mark Roberts and Flair is the way to go.

It's also way more flexible. Sure you can start off with controlling 4 motors, but as you need more the Flair software can handle it. (As a small example) Let's say in a product shot, you have dolly, pan, tilt, focus but then it might be important to add two axis of motion and motors to the turn product as well (it spins as it's coming toward you, etc (i know it might seem extreme but think of the higher end stuff) With Flair, it hunk you get to control up to 40 axis of motion ( think of what it really takes to control a MILO or Titan rig)

This is where buying into a system like Flair might a far better choice. Yes, there are plenty of simple arduino based systems that will move stuff around with rubber bands, but if you want zero backlash with a 200mm lens on the camera and repeat the move 30 times in a day you can't look at these lesser systems.

Battistella


Björn Benckert said:
Just so I understand, could you please show me a link to a ditogear head or slider that is more solid than the mark robert stuff. I might sound like a Mark roberts fan boy but when I look at the other stuff it's like kids toys to me. And I see no other competing head in the SHF-30 size that is even half as solid and sliders I could not speak for but again you need to keep your camera weight low and close to track and also have it all in balance. Then off course speed is a factor. Basically to make highspeed moves on a mono rail with a low weight epic you need something that is at least so heavy so two people can not lift it. I would recon 80 kg or so. if weight is lower you kind of need to have things bolted to the ground, still then the build would need to be as solid steel. I see no such tracks around. All I see is flimsy low weight flexing stuff that distribute all kinds of bad vibrations.
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Robert Ruffo New said:
WOW That will be AWESOME!!!!!!!!! (Can I buy head now, and have it work with controls? Or will this require a new head?)

By jog wheel do you mean like a gear head wheel? Really, really useful would be a stick that works like a pointer/virtual fluid head (much more useful than a joystick which is extremely hard to operate well)...
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words Robert. In regards to the exact details, more will be coming, as we get the prototype(s) completed and tested. I just wanted the group to know that we are now in process working on the prototypes and plan to have some available for show at NAB.

I know the fluid head handle is another control on the list to look into, but I don't know that it will be one that will be ready for NAB.

We will also be showing the small jib arm, as well as a prototype of one of our KC-8 cranes controlled by CineDrive. Our turntable kit was also just recently released.

We are working hard to bring out the tools for CineDrive that customers have been asking for.
 
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I vote Kessler. I've worked with the Cinedrive system and it's extremely easy and fun to work with.

Also they're working on a shutter control cable for the Epic / Scarlet which will unlock the full potential of the Cinedrive and Epic / Scarlet systems together.
 
George Nelson said:
I vote Kessler. I've worked with the Cinedrive system and it's extremely easy and fun to work with.

Also they're working on a shutter control cable for the Epic / Scarlet which will unlock the full potential of the Cinedrive and Epic / Scarlet systems together.
Click to expand...

Well thats' good news. here's a trick though: Shoot at 48 full shutter for 24fps work. then you have more meticulous adjustment of shot match
 
Chris Beller said:
We will also be showing the small jib arm, as well as a prototype of one of our KC-8 cranes controlled by CineDrive. Our turntable kit was also just recently released.
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Cool this is what i been waiting for. Will follow with interest!
 
I don't want to hijack or resurrect an old thread, but it seems to me there was a lot of expert discussion going on so I will give it a try:

I am doing research on "a poor man's moco system" based on slider systems and therefor i was testing the floatcam system last week

http://www.floatcampro.com/products/dollycrane-en

I am looking for a rather simple move:
camera (epic with prime) traveling approx. 150cm, Duration 30-45 seconds, no speed changes
camera running with 100fps

is this what you consider a fast move with all the problems attached?

since the floatcam has no light signal (optical sync beep before the movement starts … is there a correct term for that?) I had to manually start the camera and then manually start the pre-programmed move and later align it in post by try-and-error - which was pain, because if not aligned correctly, geometrical structures in the background seem "to swim" - is this the reasons the moco experts here are calling for a sync connection between camera shutter and slider?

someone mentioned in a post "full shutter could help" - how?

anyone tried the floatcam system? if yes, what is your experience with this system?

this is the kind of movement I am looking for (please forgive the music selection ;-)

 
If you want pixel-perfect sync across multiple passes you need to genlock the system to the camera. You will need to get into Mark Roberts, Bot n' Dolly or Mosys systems to get that functionality. The kessler system does have a 'bloop light' for multipass sync. It's not absolutely pixel perfect but I've done multipass shots successfully with it.

https://vimeo.com/72303205
 
Seeing quite a few posts of people selling their Kessler CineDrive systems. Any reason? Not using it enough? Or moving onto something else?

I had a chance to check out camBLOCK at NAB and thought it looked fantastic. I'm really intrigued by their multi-timelapse mode. You can essentially program multiple moves and if your interval is long enough between photos (say, 15s) then the system will interleave the photos from each move. So it will do Setup1-Photo1, then quickly slide to Setup2-Photo1, then slide to Setup3-Photo1, then slide back to Setup1-Photo2... and so on. So you could do several 1-hour time lapse moves in a single hour.

Also, has anyone traveled with their MoCo setup? I'm doing a two week trip in Scotland (including a lot of hiking) and the camBLOCK Adventure looks like it would be the most simple for throwing into my bag.
 
for timelapses and small package Second Shooter from Kessler is a good way. super small and really robust and can do 3 key point move... that is mostly enough for timelapses...
 
Hey, I figured I'd throw my two cents in here.

I've been paying attention to the MoCo scene for the past few years, and I think it's safe to say that things seem to be getting better / cheaper / more capable all the time.

My first experience was with what I'd consider the best system I've seen to date - the MRMC Milo (and their Flair software). Flair kind of works like a 3D animation app, and it knows where everything is in 3D space at all times, allowing it to do target tracking - something none of the other [much less expensive] systems can do.

The most affordable way to get into an MRMC/Flair system that I've found is their smallest multi-axis rig, the Animoko. It's not really useable for live-action work, but if you want to do multi-pass stop-frame animation, or really slow-moving live stuff, it looks pretty sweet. I think they go for around $60-70k or so.

I've also had some time with Kessler's CineDrive system, and I think it's a pretty great option for under $15k. You do need a lot of parts to get everything working together, but it's super-modular, and my experience with their support team has been very good. I'm also a big fan of the fact that they upgrade and improve their software regularly.

I've heard good things about the DitoGear system, but I haven't seen it first-hand. It looks comparable to CineDrive, though.

CamBlock also caught my eye a while back, and now that they're not using iPaq PDAs for their user interface (srsly), I think they fit right in with the DitoGear and CineDrive. Their new Adventure model looks neat. They say that their are expansion ports for additional axes, but I couldn't find any specific info about it.

What has really impressed me is Kessler's SecondShooter system. They updated the software so that two controller units can be paired together, allowing for up to 6 axes of movement. That was enough to convince me to purchase a rig of my own, which I have been really pleased with so far. What I'm really excited about though, is their plan to release an wifi "backpack" accessory, which will allow the SecondShooter system to be controlled by their existing Motion Control software "KAOS" - the same one used by CineDrive.
What's more - the existing SecondShooter motors are upwards-compatible with the CineDrive system, so should I decide to upgrade one day, I'll be able to continue using my existing kit (with an adapter cable or two).

I also recently owned (and sold) the Edelkrone Slider / Action / Target Module combination. That is a great system for travel and small-footprint use. It sets up super-fast, takes up very little room, and is really easy to just start using. The only downside is that it's limited to two axes - the slider and either a pan or tilt, depending on how you orient the head. For nearly the same money (around $3k), I was able to get a 5-axis SecondShooter rig - pan, tilt, slide, and two focus motors. I did opt for the smallest/cheapest slider, but I can easily use any other Kessler slider, which are easy to come by.

I know a couple of guys that love their Emotimo heads, which pair up well with DragonFrame and the Dynamic Perception gear (I think). DP's stuff looks pretty nice, too; it seems in line with Kessler's older Elektra line of controllers/motors. Emotimo also recently released a little programmable motorized skater dolly which looks pretty cool, too.

There are a few other lower-end options out there, as well, but these are the ones that have been on my radar recently.

The only other system I've seen that comes close to the MRMC stuff is from Bot & Dolly. Not really sure what's up with them; they haven't posted to twitter in a while, and their domain seems to have expired. Really slick tech, though. As I understand it, they use Maya (or some other traditional 3D app) as the front-end to control/animate their multi-axis rigs. I don't think you can just buy one outright, though.

I'm starting out small (doing mostly table-top work), but my hope is to get something bigger and more capable down the road.
Here's a link to something I shot the other day: https://vimeo.com/125622278
 
I've had Cinedrive for 1 year, and just picked up SecondShooter, i really enjoy that they are both compatible and upgradeable. I use SS for quick timelapse, and B camera for multi-cam shoots, and the CD pan/tilt head is more robust for larger cameras. I really like how responsive and approcheable their design team is on their forum, even after hours. I've been bailed out in the field, and even eric kessler has emailed me directly to ask about specific features. they just released a live camera position upgrade called 'event mode' and will be rolling out dragon frame support this year. i'm not endorsed by them, but i would definitely say they're worth considering next to these other systems.
 
I'm looking at getting a cinedrive or second shooter kit to start with, pretty much only for multi pass vfx work. I was reading much older threads where people were having lots of issues with repeatability. Is that still an issue or are the latest updates giving people more repeatable moves?
 
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