More Rants

[Lenny Manfred]

Maybe i am not understanding the business model here, but this is the message i am getting from the announcement on friday: "we at RED only want to have 7,000 clients, ever.."

In other words, if you where one of the first 7,000 customers that bought a camera, and you did not sell your camera either, then, we still want to do business with you. but if you did not buy a camera from us in our first two years of business, or if you did, but you sold it, we don't want you to buy again from us.

So, if you where a kid during those first two years and now that you got out of school and you want to start doing your own productions, you are out of luck.
If you just got into the "video" camera rental business, you are also out of luck. Or, like me, if you where one of the first couple of hundred people that put your trust and cash into a company that no one had heard of at the time, but then you did not do well with the camera and decided to sell it, but always hoped to try again later, you are out of luck.

Because only the chosen 7,000 will be able to buy this camera as a package at a reasonable price, and the rest of us will have to pay a lot more to own it, and there are all these confusing rules to keep up with that will probably change anyway...

This goes back to my number one complaint i always had about RED, it is more a club, less a business.

I am one of those people that don't like private clubs ("i would never join a club that would have me as a member" comes to mind), or clicks, or bars where they pick you from the line, because you are cool or good looking.

I thought this was supposed to be the camera for the people, what happened to the rebellion?
Now, just like in most communist regimes, it becomes an elitist society where the "friends" of the leader get all the benefits and the people are left out in the cold.
RED! When did you loose your way!?! The Rebellion seems to now be dead.

 

[rod bradley]

Lenny, with all due respect, Red is being run as a business -- and very well run too. There is nothing, NOTHING in anything that was announced that implies what you are stating in any way. Red is simply rewarding people who early on were able to take the chance and chose to do so and put their money (often very hard earned and/or borrowed) to prove it.

I would say your opening line is correct. You truly are not getting the business model. And you are definitely NOT understanding the announcement.

Most of us in our lives have to start somewhere and with less than we might desire. Red is not an exclusive club, it is a business -- but it has a following because the tools it has produced are unique both in price structure -- and its attitude is one of partnership and respect for its customers. And in a very staid and conservative industry, doing projects on a new piece of gear involves some risktaking and guts. So Red is recognizing this.

I have no idea how you managed to so misinterpret the announcement. But I'd gently suggest you relax. Red is now making an even more affordable camera which will be announced on November 30. I'm guessing there will be models that will be less than a 5th cost of an Epic X with modules. And of course there are many more affordable and brilliantly workable cameras out there as well.

And just to point out the obvious -- Red did not choose the 7,000 you claim are the chosen. Those seven thousand chose Red. And you can too according to what you can afford. Simple as that.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

Well, I respectfully disagree. Remember, I was one of the early adopters here (202) and for that i got a credit of $1,200 on my purchase. But now, all of a sudden, new buyers can not trade their cameras, and if you wanted to buy an epic now it would cost a lot more than $28,000. Now, i don't know about you, but for me to stay competitive in this tough market, i cannot pay a lot more for the same camera than the guy next to me, because then i would have to charge a lot more to rent it, hence price myself out of business (a lesson i learned the hard way with my 202, which I built a little to fancy to be able to compete with the others that bought just the basic). So, with all due respect back at you, I don't think that I am wrong here. Remember, Canon, Fujinon, Sony, Panasonic, they don't penalize you for not buying a camera when it first comes out, you just buy when you are ready. I just don't like this private club/sect feel i sometimes get here. I love the camera, don't get me wrong, but I am not a blind follower.

 

[Stephen Williams]

Hi,

If you sold an early sn camera early you must have made a killing, what is your problem?

Stephen

Well, I respectfully disagree. Remember, I was one of the early adopters here (202) and for that i got a credit of $1,200 on my purchase. But now, all of a sudden, new buyers can not trade their cameras, and if you wanted to buy an epic now it would cost a lot more than $28,000. Now, i don't know about you, but for me to stay competitive in this tough market, i cannot pay a lot more for the same camera than the guy next to me, because then i would have to charge a lot more to rent it, hence price myself out of business (a lesson i learned the hard way with my 202, which I built a little to fancy to be able to compete with the others that bought just the basic). So, with all due respect back at you, I don't think that I am wrong here. Remember, Canon, Fujinon, Sony, Panasonic, they don't penalize you for not buying a camera when it first comes out, you just buy when you are ready. I just don't like this private club/sect feel i sometimes get here. I love the camera, don't get me wrong, but I am not a blind follower.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

no killing, i sold it for what i paid for the package. if you don't get my problem you don't know how to read, you just make up your own story.

all i am saying is that, sure, if you are an early adopter have the benefit of getting the camera before new buyers, that is fair. but when it is time for new buyers to get theirs, don't make it more expensive. that is just silly. you don't see Canon selling their 7d for more money to the people that did not buy a 5d first, do you?

 

[Stephen Williams]

if you don't get my problem you don't know how to read, you just make up your own story.

Hi Lenny,

I'm Dyslexic.

Stephen

 

[Kreisky]

no killing, i sold it for what i paid for the package. if you don't get my problem you don't know how to read, you just make up your own story.

all i am saying is that, sure, if you are an early adopter have the benefit of getting the camera before new buyers, that is fair. but when it is time for new buyers to get theirs, don't make it more expensive. that is just silly. you don't see Canon selling their 7d for more money to the people that did not buy a 5d first, do you?

but the reason why there is a 7D/5D is RED ! dont forget that !
otherwise they would have released it 2019 !

just for info ! Red produces digital CINEMA cameras....
there is a price for CINEMA.......dont compare it to FOTO

 

[Steven-Marc C.]

Hey Lenny,
Seems like you missed this post by Jim in the announcement thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=501478&postcount=17

Anyone who buys a new RED ONE or a used RED ONE and transfers ownership after yesterday... will be able to trade it in for $17,500 credit on an EPIC-X Brain ONLY (STAGE Four).

Looks like there's still time to join the club if you want to. :smile5:

 

[Colin Sheldon]

Because only the chosen 7,000 will be able to buy this camera as a package at a reasonable price, and the rest of us will have to pay a lot more to own it, and there are all these confusing rules to keep up with that will probably change anyway...

So you're saying, having to pay $30-$40k for a Epic S35 system is unreasonable? Using that logic, Sony and Panasonic will never sell any cameras ever again. Red has a full product line of cameras that blow their competitors out of the water - and at lower price points across the board.

You're real gripe is that there isn't some special deal for "x" camera owners - that there are people out there who will get a "better" deal then the "good" deal you'll get.

The way I look at it, you bought a camera made some money off of it, and then sold it for the exact same price you paid. Since you sold the camera you've either been saving on interest payments or making interest on other investments. Maybe that ends up being a good deal, maybe not. But it was your choice to sell it. No one blames etrade for selling their stock to early or too late (or worse yet - blames the company for increasing the dividend).

And if there is a club it's like an airmiles club. There are certain rewards for being a member. Why is that so wrong? Because Red wants to give a pat on the back to those of us who have been making interest payments and trying to build a company with their product all of a sudden they're the bad guy?

My recommendation is to go look at Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC, etc and see what their product offerings are like. Then look at Red and buy one of their reasonably priced camera systems - and stop looking at the grass on the other side.

I am just amazed by the sense of entitlement that people have. The patience the Red team has is amazing...

 

[Curran Giddens]

You sold everything for the price you paid. Not much to complain about there.

If you had instead sold all your accessories and kept the RED ONE body (#202) to trade in, you would have saved $5,250 in free modules.

Did you at least get $5,250 worth of use out of such a low serial number camera before you sold it?

Gotta keep things in perspective....

 

[Felix K.]

I still think that people who think that RED is elitist don't understand a thing about what RED achieved in regards to filmmaking. To shoot in this quality was never that cheap. And it will become even cheaper. That is democratization of production facilities at its best. Sure, there is still a threshold of how low a budget can be. But that has rather decreased than increased through RED...

Just think about it...

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=5tY9AA&search=democratisation

 

[Tim H.]

but the reason why there is a 7D/5D is RED ! dont forget that !
otherwise they would have released it 2019 !

just for info ! Red produces digital CINEMA cameras....
there is a price for CINEMA.......dont compare it to FOTO

You're kidding right? Do you honestly think Canon or Nikon needs to compete with Red? They are in different markets - just as you said CINIMA and FOTO. Red was not taking a dollar away from Canon sales so why on earth would Red cause Canon to create a 5D,7D?

Amazing.

 

[Joel Kaye]

all i am saying is that, sure, if you are an early adopter have the benefit of getting the camera before new buyers, that is fair. but when it is time for new buyers to get theirs, don't make it more expensive. that is just silly.

It's not silly at all. It encourages current owners to upgrade even moreso. Price sensitivity for expensive cameras is fairly inelastic ie $5k this way or that way doesn't matter "that" much. New buyers won't be affected. Yeah, they have to pay more. Oh well.

If you're in the EPIC market what other competing camera do you buy anyhow? A Scarlet maybe? Yeah, maybe. Do you own math from there.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

I still think that people who think that RED is elitist don't understand a thing about what RED achieved in regards to filmmaking. To shoot in this quality was never that cheap. And it will become even cheaper. That is democratization of production facilities at its best. Sure, there is still a threshold of how low a budget can be. But that has rather decreased than increased through RED...

Just think about it...

http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=5tY9AA&search=democratisation

Yes, that is why I bought into RED to begin with, they made cinema within reach for all. That was the rebellion, but i think they lost sight of that.

You are all missing my point, and I am glad so many of you are made of money that you don't care about $5,000 more or less.

I agree that RED should do something special for the people that bought their camera, and that is, save their place in line. I myself was about to buy a RED camera again, had my deposit in and all, waiting for my serial number assignment, i was ready to drink the koolaid again, but now that i learn that when the time to trade my camera comes all i am going to get is a brain for the same money that the first 7,000 people are getting a full functioning camera, i am just not that interested anymore.

Not only will i be the last one to be upgraded, something i new would happen and was willing to wait, but now i also have to pay a lot more? With that you lost me, and, i would imagine, countless others.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

So you're saying, having to pay $30-$40k for a Epic S35 system is unreasonable? Using that logic, Sony and Panasonic will never sell any cameras ever again. Red has a full product line of cameras that blow their competitors out of the water - and at lower price points across the board.

You're real gripe is that there isn't some special deal for "x" camera owners - that there are people out there who will get a "better" deal then the "good" deal you'll get.

The way I look at it, you bought a camera made some money off of it, and then sold it for the exact same price you paid. Since you sold the camera you've either been saving on interest payments or making interest on other investments. Maybe that ends up being a good deal, maybe not. But it was your choice to sell it. No one blames etrade for selling their stock to early or too late (or worse yet - blames the company for increasing the dividend).

And if there is a club it's like an airmiles club. There are certain rewards for being a member. Why is that so wrong? Because Red wants to give a pat on the back to those of us who have been making interest payments and trying to build a company with their product all of a sudden they're the bad guy?

My recommendation is to go look at Sony, Panasonic, Canon, JVC, etc and see what their product offerings are like. Then look at Red and buy one of their reasonably priced camera systems - and stop looking at the grass on the other side.

I am just amazed by the sense of entitlement that people have. The patience the Red team has is amazing...

wow, you are so full of wrong assumptions here i don't know where to begin.

1) it is not about the price. It is about paying more for the same thing. Sony would not charge you more to buy an F35 now than if you bough it last year. (actually, they did have some kind of trade in thing for F23 owners, but the price of the F35 is the same for all)

2) "- that there are people out there who will get a "better" deal then the "good" deal you'll get.", again, the rebellion, communism, it is supposed to make things equal, for everyone.

3) 'The way I look at it, you bought a camera made some money off of it, and then sold it for the exact same price you paid" you could not be further from the facts here. I made a total of $5,000 with my RED, and lost maybe $10,000 in the whole deal. And the money i got from selling the camera i used to pay off my credit cards that i bought the camera with to begin with, which were somewhat high on interest.

I did not make any money on my red because i made my package so nice and pro level, had about $80,000 invested on it, that i priced myself out of the competition. Especially last year, when the production business took a big hit here in L.A., and there where sooooo many red ones overflowing the market. i remember loosing a 7-8 day music video job in cairo to a guy that went for free just for the experience. that was the straw that broke the camel's back (Cairo-camel, get it?).

that was the day i decided to sell, how can i compete with free.

4)"I am just amazed by the sense of entitlement that people have. The patience the Red team has is amazing..."
here, have some more koolaid

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Lenny - I like you, man, but I don't understand this rant. You will have more choices than the ones mapped here. You will be able to buy a totally professional Scarlet with better functionality than a RED ONE for a substantially better price than a RED ONE.

You will be able to bank on a big secondary market in already-executed RED ONEs within the year, most likely.

There are amazing choices coming at amazing prices.

RED made a cut-off date for their offer, and Jim warned us that "something" was coming that would make RED ONE owners happy. He probably should have mentioned that it would also make non-RED ONE owners unhappy, but I don't really think that he thinks that way, frankly....

The only thing left will be for all of us to live up to the technological gifts that are about to be delivered.

But, regarding that music video anecdote, be careful with your purchases, is all I can say. Be very, very careful. It is a sign of the times.

And the race to the bottom is only just beginning.

 

[Roberto B]

Hi Lenny,

I'm Dyslexic.

Stephen

ehehehehe the quality of your humor is going up

- the gang

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Lenny,

Didn't Jim say if you buy a RED today you will be able to trade up to a Epic BODY ONLY. Is your main rant against missing out on the accessories?

 

[Brad Webb]

Lenny,

RED is not charging different prices for the EPIC. They are rewarding the customers that helped grow their company. What other camera company lets you trade in your old model camera to get a discount off the new camera with a bunch of free extras thrown in?

You sold your early serial number Red One, that was your choice. You were able to sell your used RED one for the same price you paid for it because of this deal that red is offering. If RED was not offering this deal, you would have taken at least a few thousand dollar loss on the body, since red was about to release a new camera making the ONE nearly obsolete.

I'm not mad at you, in fact I'm super jealous you can afford to buy a Red one. I also know that you probably posted this ant in hopes that someone at red sees it and maybe lets you get in on the tattoo deal, since you were one of the early supporters of Red. Honestly, I'm hoping that they let you into Stage 1-3. Good Luck.

 

[James T Mather]

I don't get it...

you purchased a camera.
you sold it for the price you paid for it.

so what are you proposing to "trade in" exactly?

I don't get your gripe.