More Rants

[Ivan G]

Lenny,

RED is not charging different prices for the EPIC. They are rewarding the customers that helped grow their company. What other camera company lets you trade in your old model camera to get a discount off the new camera with a bunch of free extras thrown in?

Very well put! I think you just made a bad decision by selling your Red!

 

[J. Eric Camp]

The problem you and some others seem to be having is a matter of perspective.

You see it as they get, and I don't.

Jim sees it as, these people gave me their money on a promise of upgradeable cameras and a company model that wouldn't leave them behind. However there are things that must be fixed / upgraded in the current camera to make sure that RED is the one leading the charge. That they are putting the best camera out there that they or possibly anyone using similar tech can.

However they want to make good on the promises made back before there was even a functioning camera. They are offering loyalty to their customers in ways that no other manufacturer ever has.

Some are upset that the current RED ONE owners get priority and "more for the money." This is just RED making good on their promises to the people who stuck with them and in many cases through feedback and hard work helped shape the camera and further it's market penetration.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

For those of us who originally got on the first waiting list and deposited $ 1,700, Jim gave us an accessory incentive, I forgot what it was.. $2500.00 of free accessories?

No one complained then..

I am extremely happy with the generosity of RED.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

also.. BOTTOM LINE!
JIM did announce the benefits of owning a RED ONE.
about a month ago.. he made it VERY CLEAR that it would be a good thing to own a RED ONE.. he said around the time of announcing the October 30th announcement.

some people saw the hint.. others didnt..
Dont blame RED

 

[Lenny Manfred]

also.. BOTTOM LINE!
JIM did announce the benefits of owning a RED ONE.
about a month ago.. he made it VERY CLEAR that it would be a good thing to own a RED ONE.. he said around the time of announcing the October 30th announcement.

some people saw the hint.. others didnt..
Dont blame RED

see, there you go again. so to buy a camera i have to read all this "coded" messages to the minions? no, guys, NO.

and you are not early adopters, I AM. most of you put money two years after i did, after the camera had been out for a while. i was there when it was just a dream in Jannard's head, so don't tell me about early adopters.

And why should i be penalized for making the decision to sell my camera when i did? do you think panasonic penalized me for selling my varicams and buying hdx900s?

I just want to be able to do business with a company that is somewhat predictable and clear on their plans all of the time, and i don't like having to spend time looking through the pages of reduser for clues on what they may or may not choose to do in the future. does that sound so crazy?

Let me be as clear as possible:
I think the right thing to do is to cancel stage 4 and just continue with the first 3. what stage 4 tells me is that the door is closed and they don't want any more people in.

I think it is fair to give people their new cameras in the order of their serial numbers/purchase dates, and i think that it is fair to give them the support equipment also in that order.

I also think that they should not close the door, they should keep it open, but if they are going to close it, they should at least let people know in advance so that future customers can make their decisions before the door closes.

Otherwise, you are asking for blind faith, and that just smells like a religious sect to me.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Can you please explain your statement about stage 4 more? Do you mean new RED customers should get the accessories for free?

 

[Lenny Manfred]

Can you please explain your statement about stage 4 more? Do you mean new RED customers should get the accessories for free?

i think new RED one owner should have the choice of trading their ONE camera for the Epic just as the first 7000, or, if they are going to change that plan, give a month or so for the people that where on the fence to decided to buy or let go, but i have never heard (please, keep the analogies here to stuff that has to do with this business) of an offer being cancelled the day before it was announced that it would be cancelled. that is clickish.

 

[Andrae Palmer]

Lenny,

So what are your plans now?

 

[Lonzo N]

see, there you go again. so to buy a camera i have to read all this "coded" messages to the minions? no, guys, NO.

and you are not early adopters, I AM. most of you put money two years after i did, after the camera had been out for a while. i was there when it was just a dream in Jannard's head, so don't tell me about early adopters.

And why should i be penalized for making the decision to sell my camera when i did? do you think panasonic penalized me for selling my varicams and buying hdx900s?

I just want to be able to do business with a company that is somewhat predictable and clear on their plans all of the time, and i don't like having to spend time looking through the pages of reduser for clues on what they may or may not choose to do in the future. does that sound so crazy?

Let me be as clear as possible:
I think the right thing to do is to cancel stage 4 and just continue with the first 3. what stage 4 tells me is that the door is closed and they don't want any more people in.

I think it is fair to give people their new cameras in the order of their serial numbers/purchase dates, and i think that it is fair to give them the support equipment also in that order.

I also think that they should not close the door, they should keep it open, but if they are going to close it, they should at least let people know in advance so that future customers can make their decisions before the door closes.

Otherwise, you are asking for blind faith, and that just smells like a religious sect to me.

Guy, they left the door open for you by allowing you to trade in any RED ONE you buy from the 30th OCt to an Epic body only. A lot of current red one owners will still be happy with this option if JIm didn't add the extra accessories.

You can look at the extra accessories given to current REDONE owners as the glass door inside the hotel that help to stop the cold from getting in

Mind you, I would have been feeling bad like you, but I figured something like this might hapen and I bought my RED ONE just a couple days before the 29th and it actually shipped on the 30th OCT. Should be getting it by tomorrow....

Matter of fact, I was the person who asked Jim the question whether 30th will be the cut off date to buy RED One and qualify for the Epic. He answered me by saying NO. He did not lie cos he didn't cut off the epic upgrade, its just that if you had RED One before the 30th OCT, then you get a bit more than someone who didn't buy before the 30th. But every RED ONE owner still gets an EPIC upgrade which is very fair. I wish Sony will give me a Free Upgrade to upgrade my Z5U to EX3...

Lighten up bro, if you need to use the RED now, just buy the REDONE and go shoot with it and then upgrade to Epic and and save $17,500.00

 

[Lenny Manfred]

Guy, they left the door open for you by allowing you to trade in any RED ONE you buy from the 30th OCt to an Epic body only. A lot of current red one owners will still be happy with this option if JIm didn't add the extra accessories.

You can look at the extra accessories given to current REDONE owners as the glass door inside the hotel that help to stop the cold from getting in

Mind you, I would have been feeling bad like you, but I figured something like this might hapen and I bought my RED ONE just a couple days before the 29th and it actually shipped on the 30th OCT. Should be getting it by tomorrow....

Lighten up bro, if you need to use the RED now, just buy the REDONE and go shoot with it and then upgrade to Epic and and save $17,500.00

again, this is the "happy i got in before the door closed behind me, and let the rest of the people suffer". I am just not down with that mentality, here, or in immigration, but let's not go into that one.

 

[Lonzo N]

again, this is the "happy i got in before the door closed behind me, and let the rest of the people suffer". I am just not down with that mentality, here, or in immigration, but let's not go into that one.

See, thats not my mentality at all.. You see the difference between me and you is that, if I did not make the move I made by buying the REDONE, I will have ONLY myself to blame and not RED. After all they don't have to give me any upgrade in the first place. But you are blaming everyone else for your poor judgment and for sitting on the fence. Just admit it, you made a wrong call and It's YOUR fault, not RED. I would blame myself if I was in your shoes. Do I feel bad that this happened this way, YES. But do I think RED was wrong for doing it this way, absolutely not...

 

[Tim Lüdin]

Let me be as clear as possible:
I think the right thing to do is to cancel stage 4 and just continue with the first 3. what stage 4 tells me is that the door i

s closed and they don't want any more people in.[/QUOTE]


I dont get this. There will be an other few thousand filmmakers making the switch to RED in the next 10 months. For them it is their first contact with RED and they all will have to pay the full price. But this full price is so cheap it is almost not true.

If you compare the offerings of Sony and Co. then you see that the RED stuff is almost a bargain.
The Epix are not for the hobbiests, those cams are for working pros. So 40-60 K is nothing in our world. Every damn IMX, Digital Beta ,HDCAM used to cost more than that.
People that bitch around about the new prices should just stay away from RED, they dont get it. Get real. Those Epics might be a too expensive hobby for some, but for us pros it is the offer of the century.

If you can't recoup an Epic within 2 years, then don't buy one, it's that simple.

 

[Steven Caesare]

And why should i be penalized for making the decision to sell my camera when i did? do you think panasonic penalized me for selling my varicams and buying hdx900s?

Providing one person a bonus is NOT the same as penalizing another person who did not get the bonus.

-sc

 

[Lenny Manfred]

Lenny,

So what are your plans now?

Not sure, Andrae, thanks for asking. I think if this is the new policy at RED I might just stay out, wait to see what that new Canon XL1/5d mix is going to look like when it comes out in a few months. I have 5 other cameras, i can still work, but it's a shame, i had already bought all the perfect accessories for my new RED i had on order, i was looking forward to using them.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Lenny,

About 3 years ago we bought a Sony DSR 570 for about 20.000 USD. Shortly after I found out about Red One. 3 years later, that camera is maybe worth 5.000 USD. Loss: 15.000.

You signed up for a Red One probably also about 3 years ago. You bought it for 15.000 (as you likely benefited from the 2.500 bonus). In June you sold it here on Reduser for an undisclosed sum, and I would guess for at least 17.500 USD. Gain: 2.500.

If you use that same 17.500 USD today you'd get a brand new RED One camera with a full year worth of warranty. You can use that camera to shoot gorgeous pictures (and judging from your reel you really do know how to do that) that are future proof.

i really can't complaint. this was a bit of a roller-coaster ride for me, but i really can't blame anyone other than myself. i just never took to it.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

s closed and they don't want any more people in.

I dont get this. There will be an other few thousand filmmakers making the switch to RED in the next 10 months. For them it is their first contact with RED and they all will have to pay the full price. But this full price is so cheap it is almost not true.

If you compare the offerings of Sony and Co. then you see that the RED stuff is almost a bargain.
The Epix are not for the hobbiests, those cams are for working pros. So 40-60 K is nothing in our world. Every damn IMX, Digital Beta ,HDCAM used to cost more than that.
People that bitch around about the new prices should just stay away from RED, they dont get it. Get real. Those Epics might be a too expensive hobby for some, but for us pros it is the offer of the century.

If you can't recoup an Epic within 2 years, then don't buy one, it's that simple.[/QUOTE]

Hey, don't tell me about pro prices, i have been doing this for 30 years.

and you all keep missing the point. you don't close the door before you say you are going to close the door, or someone is going to get hurt when it closes on their foot. You announce a date that the door will close, and when that date comes you can close, but you announce it first.

I hate all this "dungeons and dragons" stuff, just give me the facts ahead of time and i can make an educated decision.

 

[Lenny Manfred]

Lenny,

About 3 years ago we bought a Sony DSR 570 for about 20.000 USD. Shortly after I found out about Red One. 3 years later, that camera is maybe worth 5.000 USD. Loss: 15.000.

You signed up for a Red One probably also about 3 years ago. You bought it for 15.000 (as you likely benefited from the 2.500 bonus). In June you sold it here on Reduser for an undisclosed sum, and I would guess for at least 17.500 USD. Gain: 2.500.

If you use that same 17.500 USD today you'd get a brand new RED One camera with a full year worth of warranty. You can use that camera to shoot gorgeous pictures (and judging from your reel you really do know how to do that) that are future proof.

thank you for the compliment. your math is a little off, but thank you for the compliment.

 

[Martin Weiss]

you don't close the door before you say you are going to close the door, or someone is going to get hurt when it closes on their foot.

Doors are getting slammed shut all the time. That's just how business is.

When I was a student, I bought a PD100 with all the money I had. The next day Sony announced the PD150. No trade in. (I still use that camera occasionally to shoot stuff.)

I don't know how many Macs I have bought that were obsolete by the time they were delivered. If you bought a 5D, you would have been surprized by the announcement of the 7D the day after. If you'd sold your 5D - with a heavy loss - to buy a 7D, you would have been surprized by the announcement of the firmware upgrade for the 5D. If you buy a car today, you will sure as hell find a better deal the moment you drive off the dealer's lot.

If RED had been run like any other company, your original R1 would have cost more, you would have sold it for much less. And the Epic would cost much more than it does even at full price.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

and you are not early adopters, I AM.

Yes I am.. I mean.. I didnt do it at NAB 06.. but I pulled the trigger on the deadline in october of 06) camera still didnt exist.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Not sure, Andrae, thanks for asking. I think if this is the new policy at RED I might just stay out, wait to see what that new Canon XL1/5d mix is going to look like when it comes out in a few months. I have 5 other cameras, i can still work, but it's a shame, i had already bought all the perfect accessories for my new RED i had on order, i was looking forward to using them.

IF the camera was on order then I dont understand? You should be within the group to get the full package deal..