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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

MEIZLER MODULE + Apple ProRes

So jarred said that prores internally will not come. Such a shame, that would really kick the competition in the butt. The only viable option is the toia module for like a price around $1500. I think time is really short for red to grab back the lost marketshare due to no simple 1080p prores option.

RED says they listen, but for more than a year this whole forum is shouting we want a simple and cheap prores/dnxhd solution asap. Why is it so hard to make? I think this is the nr. 1 thing were red is loosing the game and really has to pass by their raw/high resolution tunnelvision and listen to customer needs, instead dictate what we should want...

Please bring that toia like module ASAP :)
 
The Red website now says available early 2013... I dont see this announced on the boards... perhaps field testing will consume the next 60 days?
 
Karl H said:
Would you like some Kool-aid to go with your Kool-aid?

Examples have been sighted where recording 2K RGB will produce BETTER images than redcode raw, and they are 5X smaller too..... high ISO and slo-mo being the main. The argument isn't just for workflow ease of 2K, there are many benefits to have the option. I don't have any high ISO on hand to show you, but have a look at this 5K slo-mo frame my Epic produced at ISO800 using Redcode RAW, and tell me this is all we need :

http://www.darklineonline.co.uk/uploads/5k120test.jpg

I don't give a crap that I can still change the white balance of the above image in post, or care that I've got a full 5K image of mush. The shot is useless. Even scaled to 2K it's unacceptable. It looks like a 1st generation cinepak file.

No, for some crazy reason I'd rather have recorded a clean, 2K RGB scaled image on board instead of this 5K one. ... I must be nuts right? In this situation, recording full 5K raw is actually detrimental to the quality of the image. Yes faster SSD's and larger file sizes will go some way to solve this problem. But why not offer us another way to get good results right now at 2K? As sensor resolution increases it's inevitable that manufacturers will offer many scaled options internally for recording. Shoot the resolution you need. Red just don't seem to be getting that.

Did you know that so far sending slo-mo to the proxy module involves playing back the R3D and recording it? Thereby copying the artifacts introduced by redcode over to the prores file?

This is not the Red user base crying out for inferiority as your metaphor seems to suggest. Its about us spotting where options and alternatives would actually give better results. Trust me, in low light you're much better off with an RGB recording post ISO 2000 than you are with R3D post processed to the same ISO... An internal 2K RGB codec would solve many problems for sure. It does no harm that 2K RGB files are smaller too and less processor taxing, which is a whole other reason as to why people want the option.

If you've never experienced these situations in your Epic, then good for you. It does not mean however that you're right, or they don't exist. Jarred's comment suggests he agrees with you, but you know I'll say this. Red started up because they didn't feel the consumer was getting what they wanted or companies were listening to consumers. On this topic they are doing similar. Having a 2K RGB internal option wont actually make the camera any worse, but it sure will make Epic more flexible and even better in the situations I mention. Red didn't say "were not offering you 300fps slo-mo because it's only 2K and thats not good enough" . 2K windowed slo-mo whose effective resolution is way under 2K is fine, even lower resolutions are offered.....but they refuse to offer 2K scaled normal shooting when it's clear there are advantages to it, whether in size, post workflow, or even producing artifact free images in some cases over redcode.

Let me ask you a question, if Epic's new sensor in 2016 shot 16K and the only recording option was 16K RAW, would you say 'yeeeeaaahhh lets burn through 1TB/second baby', or would you think that offering other scaled recording modes too would actually be a reasonable option for those who don't need 16K all the time, every time. It's inevitable that as sensor resolution increases, manufacturers will offer many different options for scaled recording internally.
Click to expand...

I have to agree with pretty much everything you said. Redcode is easily broken in many slomo situations. Clients are now expecting rough cuts the next day. I don't know when that became acceptable, but that is not conducive to a raw workflow.
 
Max M. said:
So jarred said that prores internally will not come. Such a shame, that would really kick the competition in the butt. The only viable option is the toia module for like a price around $1500. I think time is really short for red to grab back the lost marketshare due to no simple 1080p prores option.

RED says they listen, but for more than a year this whole forum is shouting we want a simple and cheap prores/dnxhd solution asap. Why is it so hard to make? I think this is the nr. 1 thing were red is loosing the game and really has to pass by their raw/high resolution tunnelvision and listen to customer needs, instead dictate what we should want...

Please bring that toia like module ASAP :)
Click to expand...


Plus 1 on the Toia Mini Module! We need it for proxies as well as EVF and Touch screen at the same time.....
 
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Jarred Land said:
of course it will.. 10 bit DNXHD will turn on a bit after shipping.
Click to expand...

DNXHD should be just a firmware upgrade according with the (big, extraordinary, jumped in the future :yesnod: ) Atomos do right now.

The real problem is the frame rate (Alexa make a AppleProRes up to 120 FPS if I'm right)
 
So if blackmagic makes a device that records dnxhd, prores and uncompressed for $345 in such a compact package that works as we speak, can we hope red gets in the game also really fast, but with the benefit of being it a module and indeed the possibility to shoot up to 120fps in prores, for say somewhere around $1000 for the module? Is that reasonable to expect/ask?
 
It really would be great to get a fully functioning ProRes/DNxHD module that matches the frame rates. Transcoding though easy to do, just makes productions think that Red is just a little harder...
 
Adam Howden said:
It really would be great to get a fully functioning ProRes/DNxHD module that matches the frame rates. Transcoding though easy to do, just makes productions think that Red is just a little harder...
Click to expand...
That's the right point!
 
Will there be a same % price drop for this module? This would make the Epic Spec, very competitive.:yesnod:
 
$13k...worth it of your gonna use all the features for wireless...then it's really closer to $20K. Very very expensive in today's tech age and especially. A 'Toia module' as its been dubbed or a very light version to make Epic/Scarlet more competitive against the new Sony's is the only thing that's gonna help. Not matching frame rates etc and a bunch of features requiring additional accessories is really only something for a very small part of the owner market and leaves the majority still wanting or just buying elsewhere. A 'lite' version matching framerates, couple of xlr's, extra monitor I/O and that's pretty much it and fit only about $4-5K is the answer against Sony currently. I won't be laying down $13K for the Meizler if it cannot even do what seems to me to be the things pretty much everyone has been asking for for around 2 years now!
 
Brigham Edgar said:
$13k...worth it of your gonna use all the features for wireless...then it's really closer to $20K. Very very expensive in today's tech age and especially. A 'Toia module' as its been dubbed or a very light version to make Epic/Scarlet more competitive against the new Sony's is the only thing that's gonna help. Not matching frame rates etc and a bunch of features requiring additional accessories is really only something for a very small part of the owner market and leaves the majority still wanting or just buying elsewhere. A 'lite' version matching framerates, couple of xlr's, extra monitor I/O and that's pretty much it and fit only about $4-5K is the answer against Sony currently. I won't be laying down $13K for the Meizler if it cannot even do what seems to me to be the things pretty much everyone has been asking for for around 2 years now!
Click to expand...
That´s exactly what most of us need and what the market is claiming for... Soon, please...
Guido
 
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