MEIZLER MODULE + Apple ProRes

[Andrea Scaglione]

At present 100% of our deliverables are full HD 1080 25p where 4K means nothing. This will change in the future but for now this is where we're at and I would guess where a large percentage of RED users are at.

What would be a game changer for us is a full HD 1080p Redcode raw codec option that preserves the 4k/5K shallow DOF but will allow much longer record times on the RED Mags. I cannot believe this would be hard for RED to add and it would make a world of a difference to us.

I've been using C300's alongside our Epic recently and god what a joy in terms of usability and workflow and storage compared to RED. The other BIG factor is that our clients simply cannot tell the difference when we show them both side by side.

The Meissler module looks great but for us, it's simply overkill and way too expensive - we could buy a C300 for this price!

Best wishes

Scott

+1 : )

 

[Karl H]

Just spoke with RED Europe and it does look like a smaller, lower cost module is in the works - eta early 2013 but please god sooner if possible! RED are listening.

Scott

In the wake of the Sony 4K camera which also offers 2K recording I hope red reconsider this philosophy. I find it impossible to believe that a camera which can record 5K compressed raw, scale 2K, pipe it out of all the ports at the same time using on the brain alone, would have a problem recording to the internal SSD if it were not recording Redcode. Prores is a breeze for a processor compared to R3D. But it seems they'd rather sell you another dual recorder module instead, just to keep their 5K philosophy intact.

Red have had an admirable philosophy of 2K is not enough - that may hold true for films and the world has woken up; but I hope they also realise that giving the customer options is a good philosophy to have too! My opinion is that in their crusade for higher resolution Red are cutting their nose off to features that most red users really want to have as an alternative. The new sony 4K camera has options to record 2K if the user wants to. I aint saying sony is great (its taken them a long time to see where the wind is blowing), but they do realise there is a market for both! So what if I decide to shoot 2K RGB instead of 5K RAW? Why should it matter to RED? If it's capable of doing it without external hardware, and its a feature that people are crying out for, why would you refuse it? Red seem to be saying 'we dont want you to do that - unless you shoot dual'. We pay the price for that, literally, by having to buy another module.

Sony clearly now have a different stance, they realise that not everything needs to be 4k, but it's there if you want it. So is 2K. Project by project choice.

Red do have an option (Meizer or the upcoming module). My view is this isn't good enough when RGB internal recording at 2K is a feature which I'm pretty sure could be a firmware upgrade IF offered as an alternative to R3D recording. Buying another module at my budget level just so I can make Red happy by having 5K RAW files (that I'll probably delete) seems a waste.... Why do they care?

 

[Tony Augustinack]

Any word on pricing of the RED Mini Mags? Also any possible adapters to be able to record to CF or SDXC cards?

Thanks!

 

[Sebastian Wiegärtner]

+1!

In the wake of the Sony 4K camera which also offers 2K recording I hope red reconsider this philosophy. I find it impossible to believe that a camera which can record 5K compressed raw, scale 2K, pipe it out of all the ports at the same time using on the brain alone, would have a problem recording to the internal SSD if it were not recording Redcode. Prores is a breeze for a processor compared to R3D. But it seems they'd rather sell you another dual recorder module instead, just to keep their 5K philosophy intact.

Red have had an admirable philosophy of 2K is not enough - that may hold true for films and the world has woken up; but I hope they also realise that giving the customer options is a good philosophy to have too! My opinion is that in their crusade for higher resolution Red are cutting their nose off to features that most red users really want to have as an alternative. The new sony 4K camera has options to record 2K if the user wants to. I aint saying sony is great (its taken them a long time to see where the wind is blowing), but they do realise there is a market for both! So what if I decide to shoot 2K RGB instead of 5K RAW? Why should it matter to RED? If it's capable of doing it without external hardware, and its a feature that people are crying out for, why would you refuse it? Red seem to be saying 'we dont want you to do that - unless you shoot dual'. We pay the price for that, literally, by having to buy another module.

Sony clearly now have a different stance, they realise that not everything needs to be 4k, but it's there if you want it. So is 2K. Project by project choice.

Red do have an option (Meizer or the upcoming module). My view is this isn't good enough when RGB internal recording at 2K is a feature which I'm pretty sure could be a firmware upgrade IF offered as an alternative to R3D recording. Buying another module at my budget level just so I can make Red happy by having 5K RAW files (that I'll probably delete) seems a waste.... Why do they care?

 

[Ruff]

Totally agree, and it's an accurate assessment of the market here.

1080 25p deliverables.

Simple as that.

When we dont need to reframe or stabilise, having the HD option to hand off easily to clients is great.

After this Sony announcement, I wouldn't buy another prores module and different media?!?!? I will just get a F5.

Different cameras for different clients.

 

[Adam Levins]

This would be so awesome, if it's possible.

In the wake of the Sony 4K camera which also offers 2K recording I hope red reconsider this philosophy. I find it impossible to believe that a camera which can record 5K compressed raw, scale 2K, pipe it out of all the ports at the same time using on the brain alone, would have a problem recording to the internal SSD if it were not recording Redcode. Prores is a breeze for a processor compared to R3D. But it seems they'd rather sell you another dual recorder module instead, just to keep their 5K philosophy intact.

Red have had an admirable philosophy of 2K is not enough - that may hold true for films and the world has woken up; but I hope they also realise that giving the customer options is a good philosophy to have too! My opinion is that in their crusade for higher resolution Red are cutting their nose off to features that most red users really want to have as an alternative. The new sony 4K camera has options to record 2K if the user wants to. I aint saying sony is great (its taken them a long time to see where the wind is blowing), but they do realise there is a market for both! So what if I decide to shoot 2K RGB instead of 5K RAW? Why should it matter to RED? If it's capable of doing it without external hardware, and its a feature that people are crying out for, why would you refuse it? Red seem to be saying 'we dont want you to do that - unless you shoot dual'. We pay the price for that, literally, by having to buy another module.

Sony clearly now have a different stance, they realise that not everything needs to be 4k, but it's there if you want it. So is 2K. Project by project choice.

Red do have an option (Meizer or the upcoming module). My view is this isn't good enough when RGB internal recording at 2K is a feature which I'm pretty sure could be a firmware upgrade IF offered as an alternative to R3D recording. Buying another module at my budget level just so I can make Red happy by having 5K RAW files (that I'll probably delete) seems a waste.... Why do they care?

 

[Scott Brown]

RED, Jim, are you listening?

Internal 1080p Pro Res recording is a winner + improved audio + heat management. Got to be a piece of cake after developing Dragon )

Scott

 

[Scott Brown]

Just a thought, with the Dragon sensor upgrades just around the corner, it would surely be preferable to have the ability to record Pro Res added internally to the existing camera bodies without having to add a new module.

What are the technical challenges to making this happen RED? Surely, the camera's have more than enough horsepower to handle this. Maybe it means reworking some of the circuit boards internal but I think this would be the neatest option.

I'm also interested to find out who really would pay out $13K for a add on module to a camera that costs $19K - to me I cannot find a business case to argue the purchase of this unit. The concept is great but financially to me it is not workable.

I genuinely don't think RED will sell many of these units.

Scott

 

[Ernesto Lomeli]

pretty sure i would rather have a F5 for the same price as a meizler module.
I think instead of responding to competition with the price drop they should have invested in getting their modules out the door cheaper.
Use some of the profit from the cameras to subsidize the production of the prores module.

i dont believe the ability of the camera to record another codec & a evf function should exceed 50% of it costs. i know there are other functions but im trying to make a point.

want to change something for the better, upgrade the functions of the current camera to be on par with the competition.

2 Veiwing paths
multiple HDSDI outputs
Multiple Resolutions for onboard media


all of these would have been an amazing response to Sony at a competitive price.


once thing i notice is that the bodies will drop in price but none of the accessories. maybe invest in that........

 

[Karl H]

Just a thought, with the Dragon sensor upgrades just around the corner, it would surely be preferable to have the ability to record Pro Res added internally to the existing camera bodies without having to add a new module.

What are the technical challenges to making this happen RED? Surely, the camera's have more than enough horsepower to handle this. Maybe it means reworking some of the circuit boards internal but I think this would be the neatest option.

I'm also interested to find out who really would pay out $13K for a add on module to a camera that costs $19K - to me I cannot find a business case to argue the purchase of this unit. The concept is great but financially to me it is not workable.

I genuinely don't think RED will sell many of these units.

Scott

The idea is that Red will bring out a smaller, proxy only recording module, cheaper than a Meizer.

It would pain me to buy it considering I think it could be done onboard. A ninja is under $1000 - can't see a Red module being offered at that price. As I was saying in the Redcode thread, we should get better looking slo-mo if we could record to 2K RGB format (I dont think prores goes up to such high framerates though). One of the reasons 5K at 120fps can look so poor is the amount of data they are trying to cram onto the SSD at 12:1 compression. This can produce bad artifacts and ironically look worse than a 2K image which requires less bandwidth.

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

Just a thought, with the Dragon sensor upgrades just around the corner, it would surely be preferable to have the ability to record Pro Res added internally to the existing camera bodies without having to add a new module.

What are the technical challenges to making this happen RED? Surely, the camera's have more than enough horsepower to handle this. Maybe it means reworking some of the circuit boards internal but I think this would be the neatest option.

I'm also interested to find out who really would pay out $13K for a add on module to a camera that costs $19K - to me I cannot find a business case to argue the purchase of this unit. The concept is great but financially to me it is not workable.

I genuinely don't think RED will sell many of these units.

Scott

...+1

 

[Colin Sheldon]

Just a thought, with the Dragon sensor upgrades just around the corner, it would surely be preferable to have the ability to record Pro Res added internally to the existing camera bodies without having to add a new module.

What are the technical challenges to making this happen RED? Surely, the camera's have more than enough horsepower to handle this. Maybe it means reworking some of the circuit boards internal but I think this would be the neatest option.

I'm also interested to find out who really would pay out $13K for a add on module to a camera that costs $19K - to me I cannot find a business case to argue the purchase of this unit. The concept is great but financially to me it is not workable.

I genuinely don't think RED will sell many of these units.

Scott

There will be a cheaper module that records only prores - but to do it internally goes against the modular concept. That way the people who want the functionality can buy/rent the module, and the rest of the people can invest their money elsewhere. Don't expect Red to add in non-core functionality to the brain.

By your logic, no one would pay $100k for master primes for an epic either - or even buy Ultra primes or Superspeeds. If anything I think red will sell MORE Meisler modules. If you were in the market for an Epic already you can now basically get the module for free. Are HD transmitters any cheaper now that Epics cost less? MDRs? Lockit Boxes? Wireless audio transmission? Is the market for Prores files any less? Nope. The demand for the functionality is still there, and buyers will have more money to spend on extras.

 

[Mark K.]

RED, Jim, are you listening?

Internal 1080p Pro Res recording is a winner + improved audio + heat management. Got to be a piece of cake after developing Dragon )

Scott

It may not be the most ideal solution ergonomically, but you can add a PIX240 to your Epic for just $3k, and get 1080p ProRes or DNxHD, with superb (and synchronised) audio recording, and fewer heat issues (if you don't record redcode raw files at the same time).

It can actually offer you everything you're looking for.

 

[Petr Dvorak]

Jim: Here you have that F1 racing car with engine from F16 you always dreamed about.
Redusers: Wow that is awesome! ... But Jim please can you put pickup body and offroad tires on it, so we can use it on our farm?

 

[Peter Moretti]

DNxHD?

 

[Jarred Land]

Jim: Here you have that F1 racing car with engine from F16 you always dreamed about.
Redusers: Wow that is awesome! ... But Jim please can you put pickup body and offroad tires on it, so we can use it on our farm?

heh heh

 

[Andrea Scaglione]

Jim: Here you have that F1 racing car with engine from F16 you always dreamed about.
Redusers: Wow that is awesome! ... But Jim please can you put pickup body and offroad tires on it, so we can use it on our farm?

Unfortunately, "that F1 racing car with engine from F16 you always dreamed about" lost on many circuits right now. Lost on most of the Broadcasters "circuits", lost on Music Video Clip "circuits", lost on the Internet viral "circuits". Loses on any circuit that is low budget.
Reduser asks a traction control to win in many more circuits.
If in 5 years these circuits will be so advanced that they have no need of a traction control everything will be ok. Although knowing RED in five years will have built engines so powerful that you still need a traction control :yesnod:

@ Jarred is good to see you laugh at certain jokes. But here you represent RED and RED should NOT laugh at all these jokes that do not reflect the reality of things

Andrea

 

[Karl H]

Jim: Here you have that F1 racing car with engine from F16 you always dreamed about.
Redusers: Wow that is awesome! ... But Jim please can you put pickup body and offroad tires on it, so we can use it on our farm?

Would you like some Kool-aid to go with your Kool-aid?

Examples have been sighted where recording 2K RGB will produce BETTER images than redcode raw, and they are 5X smaller too..... high ISO and slo-mo being the main. The argument isn't just for workflow ease of 2K, there are many benefits to have the option. I don't have any high ISO on hand to show you, but have a look at this 5K slo-mo frame my Epic produced at ISO800 using Redcode RAW, and tell me this is all we need :

http://www.darklineonline.co.uk/uploads/5k120test.jpg

I don't give a crap that I can still change the white balance of the above image in post, or care that I've got a full 5K image of mush. The shot is useless. Even scaled to 2K it's unacceptable. It looks like a 1st generation cinepak file.

No, for some crazy reason I'd rather have recorded a clean, 2K RGB scaled image on board instead of this 5K one. ... I must be nuts right? In this situation, recording full 5K raw is actually detrimental to the quality of the image. Yes faster SSD's and larger file sizes will go some way to solve this problem. But why not offer us another way to get good results right now at 2K? As sensor resolution increases it's inevitable that manufacturers will offer many scaled options internally for recording. Shoot the resolution you need. Red just don't seem to be getting that.

Did you know that so far sending slo-mo to the proxy module involves playing back the R3D and recording it? Thereby copying the artifacts introduced by redcode over to the prores file?

This is not the Red user base crying out for inferiority as your metaphor seems to suggest. Its about us spotting where options and alternatives would actually give better results. Trust me, in low light you're much better off with an RGB recording post ISO 2000 than you are with R3D post processed to the same ISO... An internal 2K RGB codec would solve many problems for sure. It does no harm that 2K RGB files are smaller too and less processor taxing, which is a whole other reason as to why people want the option.

If you've never experienced these situations in your Epic, then good for you. It does not mean however that you're right, or they don't exist. Jarred's comment suggests he agrees with you, but you know I'll say this. Red started up because they didn't feel the consumer was getting what they wanted or companies were listening to consumers. On this topic they are doing similar. Having a 2K RGB internal option wont actually make the camera any worse, but it sure will make Epic more flexible and even better in the situations I mention. Red didn't say "were not offering you 300fps slo-mo because it's only 2K and thats not good enough" . 2K windowed slo-mo whose effective resolution is way under 2K is fine, even lower resolutions are offered.....but they refuse to offer 2K scaled normal shooting when it's clear there are advantages to it, whether in size, post workflow, or even producing artifact free images in some cases over redcode.

Let me ask you a question, if Epic's new sensor in 2016 shot 16K and the only recording option was 16K RAW, would you say 'yeeeeaaahhh lets burn through 1TB/second baby', or would you think that offering other scaled recording modes too would actually be a reasonable option for those who don't need 16K all the time, every time. It's inevitable that as sensor resolution increases, manufacturers will offer many different options for scaled recording internally.

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Is there a cable for the new Meizler module that has the two full size XLR's to lemo on it for this?

Thanks

 

[Dennis Hingsberg]

Excellent new. I'm intrigued to know if viewing / SDI tap colour space and Prores recording colour space can be different, or must they all match? ie. exposure tools etc for operator, RC3/RG3 with overlays for director etc, clean RC3/RLF to prores.

Me too. Would be ideal to record RedLogfilm internally and red color X at the same time out existing SDI or through meizler module.

Any word on this?