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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

May Update... The month of Raven

A 50 is a 50 is a 50. That's its "true" focal length. Any DP worth their salt know that. And will know exactly how they will look in a certain camera. You are confusing focal length with field of view. The focal length of a lens, its bookeh characteristics relating to it'd iris setting, its distortion (or lack of it) don't change regardless of what slice of the picture you see from it. Your field of view, on the other hand, does change. But that is just one of many characteristics of a lens.
The bottom line is that RED Dragons (which are the cameras we are discussing here), at 5K have a standard field of view as related to Super 35, i.e. no crop. And whatever the crop factor is at 4K, it's really exaggerated.
To say a 50 is really a 75 is just ludicrous.
 
This argument gets brought up a lot on these forums, and yes, a 50 will always be a 50. Knowing how crop factors work is really important for people mixing different cameras with different sensor sizes especially if you're going for a specific look you got with a lens (like on a gimbal or steadicam) that you want to match FOV wise on a different camera. Crop factors as they relate to Stills FF35 are becoming more and more important as RED sensors are getting larger.
 
It shouldn't be an argument. It's really basic knowledge, like knowing different color temperatures and how to make them work for you. When erroneous notions start being thrown around like they are obvious rules, it's when these basic notions need to be rehashed.
Now back to the scheduled programing...
 
Daniel Stilling said:
When erroneous notions start being thrown around like they are obvious rules, it's when these basic notions need to be rehashed.
Now back to the scheduled programing...
Click to expand...

Are you referring to using full frame as the reference point for "crop factor" as an "erroneous notion" ?

Perhaps a better way would be "not a reference point i prefer to use".

After all, there are exponentially more stills photographers in the world than there are Super35 cinema shooters.
 
shooting side by side epic dragon/Scarlet-w I do not notice any significant changes in my lenses. 50 feels like a 50, deff not a 75. however if i was to set the scarlet-w to 4k there would be a noticeable difference in the image with the same lens
 
Daniel Stilling said:
A 50 is a 50 is a 50. That's its "true" focal length. Any DP worth their salt know that. And will know exactly how they will look in a certain camera. You are confusing focal length with field of view. The focal length of a lens, its bookeh characteristics relating to it'd iris setting, its distortion (or lack of it) don't change regardless of what slice of the picture you see from it. Your field of view, on the other hand, does change. But that is just one of many characteristics of a lens.
The bottom line is that RED Dragons (which are the cameras we are discussing here), at 5K have a standard field of view as related to Super 35, i.e. no crop. And whatever the crop factor is at 4K, it's really exaggerated.
To say a 50 is really a 75 is just ludicrous.
Click to expand...

Why is it ludicrous? We all know, each lens has its own characteristics.
Ok fine, field of view... tell me, does a 50mm with 11 iris blades on a f-stop of 1.5 on super35mm, have the same field of view as 50mm (same characteristics) on a Full Frame?
Lets say it has a 1 foot minimum focus distance, and that's how close you want your subject to be... you like how it looked on a super35, but hate how it looks on an 8K Full Frame....
What do you have to do? Why?
 
DJ Meyer said:
Are you referring to using full frame as the reference point for "crop factor" as an "erroneous notion" ?

Perhaps a better way would be "not a reference point i prefer to use".

After all, there are exponentially more stills photographers in the world than there are Super35 cinema shooters.
Click to expand...

We shouldn't be separating stills and video as 2 separate entities in the first place...
First, we say video is "motion pictures."
Second, most of us call ourselves 'DoPs' or 'DPs' or 'Director of Photography' (whichever, you use) its not Director of Videography or Director of Cinematography

Lastly, if you aren't using many of the photography techniques in doing your video... you are missing out.
 
Matthew Quinn said:
shooting side by side epic dragon/Scarlet-w I do not notice any significant changes in my lenses. 50 feels like a 50, deff not a 75. however if i was to set the scarlet-w to 4k there would be a noticeable difference in the image with the same lens
Click to expand...

So you are saying that the field of view on the epic dragon is the same as the Scarlet?
Shoot it the epic at 6K and the scarlet at 5K... still same?
 
DJ Meyer said:
Perhaps a better way would be "not a reference point i prefer to use".
Click to expand...

Yes, but it also happens to be the reference point that the entire filmmaking industry uses at a professional level.

I get it, man. I came from shooting on the 5D and all of my reference points for lenses were the field of view I got on a full frame sensor.

But that's not really the reference point we use in the film industry. We use the super35 sensor. So maybe "erroneous" is the wrong word, but "not industry standard" is certainly fair to say.
 
Kabilen Mullaithilaga said:
So you are saying that the field of view on the epic dragon is the same as the Scarlet?
Shoot it the epic at 6K and the scarlet at 5K... still same?
Click to expand...

Hey Kabilen,

Field of view certainly changes with sensor size, but that's not the same as saying "a 50 becomes a 75" as others have noted. Also important to remember that when DPs think about what field of view they get on a 50, they're thinking in terms of shooting on a super 35 sensor, not a fullframe.

To get a great idea of how the sensor size (or resolution, given that the Red cameras all crop the sensor for lower resolutions) changes field of view, download the Redtools app, or the Artemis app, both of which give you a great visual reference for that.
 
Tom Dowler said:
Yes, but it also happens to be the reference point that the entire filmmaking industry uses at a professional level.

I get it, man. I came from shooting on the 5D and all of my reference points for lenses were the field of view I got on a full frame sensor.

But that's not really the reference point we use in the film industry. We use the super35 sensor. So maybe "erroneous" is the wrong word, but "not industry standard" is certainly fair to say.
Click to expand...

This^^^^

Thanks.
 
BTW, just so you guys know... industry standards are changing.
Whats in demand now...65mm, 70mm now?

Knowing your equivalents, should be on everyone's minds.
 
Has anyone who has ordered a Raven through a dealer received theirs yet? I switched my order to Samy's, but they have been telling me that they don't have a timestamp per se, but rather a contract and that just didn't make sense to me because of what Brent has shared on this forum about dealers, individuals and timestamps. They claim they're clueless as to when they're receiving their cameras, but if you sign a contract with RED as a dealer wouldn't there be some kind of language about a delivery date? It's really not my place, I'm just kind of confused by this. I have absolutely no problem waiting -- it would have been a wait regardless of where I purchase my package from. I just want to make sure I'm not being duped because if this was the case I would have happily just retained my original spot in RED's queue.
 
Alex Dobriansky said:
Has anyone who has ordered a Raven through a dealer received theirs yet? I switched my order to Samy's, but they have been telling me that they don't have a timestamp per se, but rather a contract and that just didn't make sense to me because of what Brent has shared on this forum about dealers, individuals and timestamps. They claim they're clueless as to when they're receiving their cameras, but if you sign a contract with RED as a dealer wouldn't there be some kind of language about a delivery date? It's really not my place, I'm just kind of confused by this. I have absolutely no problem waiting -- it would have been a wait regardless of where I purchase my package from. I just want to make sure I'm not being duped because if this was the case I would have happily just retained my original spot in RED's queue.
Click to expand...

In the same boat as you but S-W and ImageOne, not Raven and Samy's. I had the same doubts and was able to keep both my original pre-order through red.com and also my one with ImageOne. We'll see which one comes out first........
 
Alex Dobriansky said:
Has anyone who has ordered a Raven through a dealer received theirs yet? I switched my order to Samy's, but they have been telling me that they don't have a timestamp per se, but rather a contract and that just didn't make sense to me because of what Brent has shared on this forum about dealers, individuals and timestamps. They claim they're clueless as to when they're receiving their cameras, but if you sign a contract with RED as a dealer wouldn't there be some kind of language about a delivery date? It's really not my place, I'm just kind of confused by this. I have absolutely no problem waiting -- it would have been a wait regardless of where I purchase my package from. I just want to make sure I'm not being duped because if this was the case I would have happily just retained my original spot in RED's queue.
Click to expand...

I switched my order to Samy's as well a few months back. Nothing yet. I know a few dudes on here already got their Ravens from Drone Nerds because that dealer ordered on first day? I would assume it's when they ordered it, unless Samys are ordering like 20-30+ packages then maybe a different rule applies. Not sure. Waiting patiently!
 
I'm almost positive you are being duped. Ordering through a dealer that hasn't preordered any raven's is no different than ordering through RED. You didn't really move yourself ahead in line at all. I'd call around to the other dealers and see if the have any pre orders not spoken for. If they do, ask what their timestamp is. If they won't tell you move on. I ordered from Omega Broadcast and I really wish I would have done that.

Alex Dobriansky said:
Has anyone who has ordered a Raven through a dealer received theirs yet? I switched my order to Samy's, but they have been telling me that they don't have a timestamp per se, but rather a contract and that just didn't make sense to me because of what Brent has shared on this forum about dealers, individuals and timestamps. They claim they're clueless as to when they're receiving their cameras, but if you sign a contract with RED as a dealer wouldn't there be some kind of language about a delivery date? It's really not my place, I'm just kind of confused by this. I have absolutely no problem waiting -- it would have been a wait regardless of where I purchase my package from. I just want to make sure I'm not being duped because if this was the case I would have happily just retained my original spot in RED's queue.
Click to expand...
 
Joey Balmforth said:
I'm almost positive you are being duped. Ordering through a dealer that hasn't preordered any raven's is no different than ordering through RED. You didn't really move yourself ahead in line at all. I'd call around to the other dealers and see if the have any pre orders not spoken for. If they do, ask what their timestamp is. If they won't tell you move on.
Click to expand...

The above is 176% correct. We are a dedicated RED Partner based in Austin, TX and have a preorder in with the RED crew. If a partner does not have a preorder in their allocation is not going to improve versus those of us who placed a stocking order. If a RED Partner is telling you different, their info is incorrect.

You can speak with your Bomb Squad rep and move an order to a RED Partner, just make sure you verify that they have a stocking order in place.

Being a RED Partner does not mean we are guaranteed delivery dates. The same product delivery times we see are just like what a person would see ordering direct. The big difference is if you placed a stocking order, we can help deliver products faster due to placing a preorder.
 
Be nice to your dealers and maybe they will bump you up to an MG for free.
 
I guess I duped myself. I definitely should have made sure that instead of just having one of these "contracts" with RED that Samy's actually pre-ordered Scarlet-Ws and Ravens with real timestamps. What's even more frustrating is that I did this to myself. I don't know for sure that Samy's didn't pre-order, but the initial signs aren't looking good. Oh well.
 
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