Perception

[jake blackstone]

I agree that RAW goes out the window ASAP. I disagree that it's harder to work with than Alexa in this respect. Have you ever tried to get a nice clean linear EXR out of an Alexa LogC file? You have to know what ISO they shot on-set. It's a nightmare. REDCode I just setup a batch job on the farm and away it goes. I know exactly what I'll get.

EXR and ACES workflow is still pretty much work in progress. Never had a problem working with Log DPX though...

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

EXR and ACES workflow is still pretty much work in progress. Never had a problem working with Log DPX though...

No need to go ACES just for EXR. RLF LogDPX does work great too though, you're right.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

David is, as usual, on the mark with his note about people forming impressions during earlier iterations of the color science. That said, I would hope Geoff Boyle's latest test in Hannover used RC3/RG3 in camera and RedLogFilm to create DPXs.

The reliability thing is such a pisser. I would wager that during the first 2 years the RedOne was in the wild, 95% of all field failures were operator error - of course its not hard to imagine how many of those folks either innocently (didn't know any better), or to cover their asses, blamed the camera. Yes, I did have to power cycle a few times some days but I have only had one camera brick on me in over 100 RED gigs. Having owned and operated professional cameras from Sony, Panasonic, etc for many years in many venues I've had them act oddly and need repair a few times just like any other sophisticated electronic item being used in field conditions.

In the hands of an experienced user the RedOne and Epic cameras have very similar reliability records to other professional systems. What do I base that assertion on? I started shooting Sony 1/2" reel to reel videotape in 1974 and have worked with just about every format you can name since and if you follow proper procedures things go fine 98% of the time.

More service centers around the globe would be nice and as RED increases their organizational capacity that may happen. In the meantime, anyone working outside the big production centers owes it to themselves and their clients to either have a back up body on hand or know where to get one quickly. That's just being prepared, no matter what name is stamped on your camera.

I think its also worth noting there are still lots of veteran pros out there who have a lot less experience with RED cams than Arri film cams or Sony broadcast rigs so they are less adept at avoiding and solving issues. That's just par for the course with any new tech, not an valid indictment of the cameras themselves. Offended Luddites should book the next train to Rochester ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Yusuf Thakur]

Change is the only constant. People all over the world are scared of change.
Guys who have done for EONS as you put it Steve will be loathe to change.
Change means to learn or re-learn what you are comfortable with.
When people are pushed or forced to move out of there comfort zone, they rebel
the most.

I agree with what you are saying Steve, but RED or Alexa these two are part
of the mammoth shift or change in filmaking as it was for 150 years, guys who
were doing it for most of the working life in films would have been working for
50-60 years max. When you are changing something that lasted 150 years,
and now about to disappear (KODAK) there will be those who refused to see the
writing on the wall.

Change will happen, the best in whichever field will prevail, cameras, software???
The scary part has been the how quickly the change is happening now, what took
decades, is now happening in months.

Case in point the Dragon sensor.

When it happens that fast, it unsettles 99% of the those who oppose change and
can not handle it.

Yusuf Thakur
VFX,Dubai
www.vfxme.com

 

[Marc Wielage]

The reliability thing is such a pisser. I would wager that during the first 2 years the RedOne was in the wild, 95% of all field failures were operator error - of course its not hard to imagine how many of those folks either innocently (didn't know any better), or to cover their asses, blamed the camera.

We saw a dozen or two fairly substantial Red post disasters, at least at Complete Post (and later Technicolor) here in LA. Some of them were due to exposure issues; some of them were due to lens backfocus/vignetting problems; some where due to timecode/shutter-timing issues (in 3D). Some happened with file corruption, dropped frames, or corrupted frames due to compression problems. But that was in the first couple of years. All ultimately ended well, and it was a learning experience on both sides.

I've honestly been very impressed as to how Red has steadily improved their products and support, and they provided lots of help and answers on the phone and resolved all issues between production and post. Over the last couple of years, I think they've gone a long way towards making producers and crews more comfortable with the camera.

I just did an Epic shoot about a month ago, and I noticed that the DP brought along a spare body. I joked with him and said, "don't tell me you don't trust the camera," and he laughed and said, "I bet we'll never need it. But at least I know it's there if we do." I don't think we had more than 5 minutes of downtime in 2 days, and the spare never came out of the case.

Producers are a superstitious lot, and I've occasionally sparred with them and said, "you know, you can shoot on Camera X just as easily as Camera Y." And they'll immediately come up with a bunch of anecdotal evidence as to why one is a bad idea, either logistically or for time or for money reasons. It's no different than the old days, when a film producer would say, "oh, I don't want to use Lab A -- Lab B has always done much better work to me," and then the next job I work on is exactly the opposite.

All of these options can work. Red is just one way to get to the finish line. I think it has pros and cons for many people, but for TV, especially if they're renting the gear, there's really not a lot of financial differences between renting Red and renting Alexa. Like everything in Hollywood, it's more about perception than it is about reality. Alexa, Canon, Red, Sony... they can all work just fine, assuming the DP has the chops to make it work, the post crew has tested the workflow, and the colorist has the range to get the look everybody wants.

I think what Red is doing now with the "image" advertising campaign in the industry mags is a very wise and admirable move. I wouldn't be surprise if this helps create more positive buzz around the cameras, and it'll undoubtedly gain them more customers.

 

[dino g]

alexa, alexa plus, alexa studio, alexa m....4 cameras in 2+ years...

red is the company that does not have standards? footage i shot with red one #0031 on 09/07/2007 works perfectly in redcine pro -x 15. almost 5 years later.

many of the points made here i have been preaching for years;

know your cameras backwards and forwards.

have backups

buy cables that allow the ac's to interface with your cameras.

know the cameras better than the ac's and have the gack to make them work with every conceivable configuration...mdr. mdr2. mdr3, single channel, microforce, cinetape, spray deflector...buy it all trust that no one else has the cable and then buy another for backup.


i agree that for the first 24 months there were maybe a few hundred cameras out in the wild that were operated/serviced/maintained/configured the way 99% of the working 1st AC's wanted them and i agree that the first AC has a lot of influence on which camera is used and which person is called on to help them. and quite frankly i have heard over 500 times how on the last red job, xyz went bad and the person who was the on-set "expert" could not fix it or resolve the issue or had even a clue how to set things up or configure the camera/files and that was and is still bad for all of us that have taken this job/ownership/religion serious enough to drop everything else in our lives including sometimes our families to make this all work perfectly, everytime.

i believe.

fincher called the "red one" on the 1st day he used one, " A TOY", i know, because it was mine, and i was there when he said it, then he went on to make huge movies with it and bask in the glory of it all, both critically, and financially. that will be the rule not the exception in this industry. few can tell, if any, which projects were shot with film, alexa, red one, epic, scarlett when the final product is on their ipad or youtube...and lets face it we consume more media that way than all others combined if you add up the minutes you watch each and be honest.

my message would be similar to jim's, hang in there team, the best is yet to come, we did not get on this train because it was advertised as first class for the price of economy, we got on because the driver was balls out one of the most innovative guys on the planet and had the bankroll and track record to tell just about anyone to "go fuck themselves" and it seems he often did...and he was promising us a golden ticket to the party...the party most of us were shut out of...and now with hard work, perseverance and jim at the helm we have all risen to the pinnacle of the industry, watching our projects compete with the best of the best....he did and is doing his part by not settling, now we need to continue to fight for our piece of the pie, one shot at a time.

alexa beat you out for a job, bring your red one or epic or scarlett anyway, when no one is looking break it out and shoot the shot that just got captured with the alexa...put it through your workflow, drop it on an ipad and bring it over to the dp and show him why he/she was wrong...

it works because i have done it dozens of times and will continue to do it...remember they are hiring you for your expertise and the camera is going to change, jim has made that a certainty, so give them excellent service, know more about this stuff than anyone else on set, study and learn, read, research, reach out, be the one guy with the answers...know the questions that they are going to ask and have responses preloaded, that is the way sales works anyway...as baldwin says, abc, always be closing, it works and jim is building the ultimate tool for the, i told you so, moments that will occur over the next few years if not already.

be like jim, dont settle, keep learning and growing and being better...5 years went by quick, in a mere 16 days the red one will be officially 5 years old in the wild, can you imagine what things will be like in 5 years from now!!!!

sure you can jump ship and go be with the safe crowd, but just ask anyone that bought a 100k digibeta deck 15 years ago what that is worth now.

yes alexa is having it's day, but we all know in our heart of hearts that those days are numbered.

i want to thank everyone on reduser that has taken this camera company/platform serious enough to buy it, learn it and get it out in the wild and through a successful shoot so that we all can work another day, without you we would all have an expensive, "toy", in our closets. not one of us can do this alone, not jim or jarred nor ted, not the first sub 100 owners, we need the guy/girl with scarlett serial number #12000 and the most expensive colorist at company 3 too embrace this platform and keep pushing it forward so that stories can continue to be told that help us all live better lives by escaping/experiencing something in 90 minutes or 45 or 22 or even 6 that took someone a lifetime to write, produce, direct, shoot, post and distribute because at the end of the day that is all we are really doing, telling stories in the hope of enriching someone else's lives...

dino

 

[gbalaji]

This thread gives me one more opportunity to show Red is actually accepted atleast in India. The reason being same 4 years before when workflow was real issue, but know every software used post house support natively or in some form and I find the constant software upgrade for camera and steps involved in handling the camera on set is the real issue. More Epics are now available in India and more than 70% of feature films in Down south of India called Tamil nadu being shot in Digital either in Alexa or EPIC.

People People People is the real problem and not Red or Software Updates or Feature sets. This transition is there for every digital cinema camera and still majority of people are in analog world or just entered the digital doors.

Out of all confusion Epics being used in majority of features in India and its the real success story.

 

[Mark K.]

Unless you're shooting for a cinema release, or the most high-end of TV production - RAW is simply overkill for most productions.

Having the BEST is great, it really is. But when money (and generally substantial amounts of it) enters into the equation - GOOD ENOUGH very quickly becomes good enough.

Even with the simpler workflows we now have for it, RAW requires more storage, and more time in post - and that costs money that producers don't want to pay; especially when a ProRes/DNxHD shoot-edit workflow will provide them with high-enough visual quality (and the quality they provide is excellent) - which in the vast majority of productions, they will.

I think reliability was the key concern that most people had with Red cameras initially, but I think it's the post-workflow that sways a lot of decisions over Alexa's way these days.

I think if Red can implement both 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 ProRes/DNxHD options into a new module (particularly one that will allow recording to non-propreitary media) - they'll open the cameras up to a whole lot of jobs that simply wouldn't chose them at the moment.

Turning down the fanboyism a couple of notches would help a great deal too - they're still just tools at the end of the day, and treating any tool as more than that can be offputting to people.

 

[gbalaji]

Henry Ford once said "If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."

It does'nt mean that Arri Alexa implemented a Pro Res 444 Workflow, Red needs to do that.

People who complain about Raw Workflow doesn't understand its full potential.

 

[Will Keir]

Your thinking out loud rings true.
I havent been told what camera to use for 20 years... So I do feel for you guys that get told what to use. Very sad indeed.

Thanks Steve,

http://www.imdb.com/find?q=Mark+Toia&s=all

Trying to find "Mark Toia" on IMDB. Mark, are you under a different name or something? After 20 years, something should come up.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

http://www.imdb.com/find?q=Mark+Toia&s=all

Trying to find "Mark Toia" on IMDB. Mark, are you under a different name or something? After 20 years, something should come up.

Mark does a lot of commercials. Those won't show up. Either will music videos, corporate shoots, promotional/marketing videos, etc. Same for me. Worked on many projects that will never be listed on IMDB. Doesn't mean the resume isn't loaded.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Steve - EXACTLY my thoughts. What a great thread. I have experienced the same thing here in Japan. Ever more Alexa shoots. Over 50% of my jobs these days are on Alexa, and I scratch my head.

I have heard all the same reasoning as everyone else here has heard too. And yes, to a large degree it is the older film generation used to film, and Alexa makes them feel more comfortable.

On set the other day, i noticed a small thing... the DP looked at the alexa and said... "400 ASA... nice...". I said, "What do you mean?". Her responded with, "Film is ASA, digital uses ISO... small difference, but nice touch..." And that is where it is at for many people.
EDIT: As David pointed out below (thankyou for that correction), this is not the case regarding ISO and ASA. It is funny how people will gear their assumptions and decisions one way or another depending on what "feels" right...

But on the other hand I truly believe that Red can do a massive amount to improve their image.

In part some of this image problem is Red's fault. They unabashedly admit that they have "no idea" what they are doing. They innovate like crazy, go gung ho, and work out the small stuff... like say... audio... or playback, later.

This breeds the perception that the camera is "not ready" or "not reliable". Good news travels fast. Bad news travels 10 times faster.

I truly believe the following - if RED were to start a massive marketing campaign on the reliability of RED products, this would do wonders. I guess part of this is the growing list of hot-shot directors and DPs who embrace it. The ads in american cinematographer. Great promotional tools and they are on the right track.

But its also the small ergonimic things... on set some things frustrate the hell out of me. Almost innovation for innovations sake.

Simple example. THE REDMOTE. I was recently on a shoot for a car commercial here in Tokyo. We had a Camera car shot across a bridge. Redmote operated. Because the bluetooth receiver is at the TOP of the camera, we had to remotely tilt the camera up every time to get the right signal level to be able to record. When using the redmote, I believe a large number of shoots would be jib/crane based... ie. up high. Why on earth put the receiver on the TOP of the camera, and not, say on either side of the camera? Sure you could argue that i should have had a lemo rec trigger to begin with, but my point still stands... what an odd place to put a bluetooth receiver - on top, where it has the worst possible signal when up high...

I love Jim, Ted, Jarred and the whole crew to death but I just wish that along with their insane and awesome innovation, they put an equal amount of knuckle grease into usability and ergonomics, and not as much on things that look and sound cool, but end up rarely being used and sometimes impractical.

My 2 cents

Ivan

 

[Ivan Kovax]

http://www.imdb.com/find?q=Mark+Toia&s=all

Trying to find "Mark Toia" on IMDB. Mark, are you under a different name or something? After 20 years, something should come up.

Whoa there horsey... before seeding doubt that Mark is actually who he is, perhaps try checking out his website first...

 

[Ivan Kovax]

It's certainly better to be in the crosshairs than to be irrelevant.

Quote of the millennium Mind if I use that in my next movie?

 

[David Mullen ASC]

On set the other day, i noticed a small thing... the DP looked at the alexa and said... "400 ASA... nice...". I said, "What do you mean?". Her responded with, "Film is ASA, digital uses ISO... small difference, but nice touch..." And that is where it is at for many people.

Nonsense -- from Wikipedia:

Current system: ISO
The ASA and DIN film speed standards have been combined into the ISO standards since 1974.

The current International Standard for measuring the speed of color negative film is ISO 5800:2001[16] (first published in 1979, revised in November 1987) from the International Organization for Standardization (ISO). Related standards ISO 6:1993[14] (first published in 1974) and ISO 2240:2003[15] (first published in July 1982, revised in September 1994, and corrected in October 2003) define scales for speeds of black-and-white negative film and color reversal film, respectively.

The determination of ISO speeds with digital still-cameras is described in ISO 12232:2006 (first published in August 1998, revised in April 2006, and corrected in October 2006).

The ISO system defines both an arithmetic and a logarithmic scale.[35] The arithmetic ISO scale corresponds to the arithmetic ASA system, where a doubling of film sensitivity is represented by a doubling of the numerical film speed value. In the logarithmic ISO scale, which corresponds to the DIN scale, adding 3° to the numerical value constitutes a doubling of sensitivity. For example, a film rated ISO 200/24° is twice as sensitive as one rated ISO 100/21°.[35]

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Nonsense -- from Wikipedia:

Thx for pointing that out... I don't doubt that at all. I was just requoting him. all the same, he was under this impression and it made him rather comfortable. I wasn't aware of the distinction between the two... He was one of Australia's top 10 DPs and I wasn't about to argue the point. In the end his point was that the Alexa felt familiar. And variations of that are a common point i hear on set quite often.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Thx for pointing that out... I don't doubt that at all. I was just requoting him. all the same, he was under this impression and it made him rather comfortable. I wasn't aware of the distinction between the two... He was one of Australia's top 10 DPs and I wasn't about to argue the point. In the end his point was that the Alexa felt familiar. And variations of that are a common point i hear on set quite often.

What is ironic is that ASA stands for American Standards Association.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

What is ironic is that ASA stands for American Standards Association.

Heh heh

 

[Zeb B]

http://www.imdb.com/find?q=Mark+Toia&s=all

Trying to find "Mark Toia" on IMDB. Mark, are you under a different name or something? After 20 years, something should come up.

Hey Willy,
I see the problem here . . . in your keyword search try: "Mark, the guy who is living the life most dream of and completes more paid for creative work in a week then I probably will in a 5 years"

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Hey Willy,
I see the problem here . . . in your keyword search try: "Mark, the guy who is living the life most dream of and completes more paid for creative work in a week then I probably will in a 5 years"

ouch... be nice Josh