Perception

[Jeff Brown]

Interesting Read.

I'll add a few observations from the Uk perspective.

1. Connectivity is key. Epic's small brain is a great design for single operator shooters but it's scale and therefore connection limitations are a problem for crews on larger jobs - no power breakouts, no second monitor path, no second BNC and fiddly underside connections. Lots of people tried Epic in it's first 6 months and were turned off by these issues in what they saw as a complete camera. There is only so many times you can tell someone that soon they'll be X Y Z module.

2. Non standard standards. As well as the above there is the fact that on many jobs you'll struggle to connect and power LCS systems, transmitters, down converters, rain deflectors, on board monitors, cinetapes etc. I've figured all this out on my cameras (with customised 3rd party options) but to echo a previous statement, out of the box camera kits consisting purely of Red items (which make up a large proportion of camera in the wild) fail in this area. I come across lots of 1st ACs who want to put their own Arri LCS / Preston / C motion on the job. Then they find out that the cable they had made for Red One turnover is now a new £200 cable for the EPIC. Little things piss off crews.

3. Stick to what you know. When you are pulling 3 magliners of kit off a truck at 6am in the rain for a multi camera shoot that is running late you don't want to have to think about what plugs in where and how it mounts to the camera. Connectors / plates / bolts that you've used since you were a trainee sometimes decades ago make a very big difference. This can not be underestimated. Crew feedback has often nothing to do with image quality. When a 1st AC tells a producer the Alexa is a "better" camera the reference point for that observation is lost and non technical producers (most of them) are easily influenced.

4. Price and snobbery. Completely agree with the previous statement that the cost / abundance of the camera is a key to it's reputation. Professional crews who may (quite rightly) be concerned about where the future of their career is heading will cling to the establishment in what they see as the "professional choice". They want the cameras to be exclusive, out of reach of the masses and special. It justifies a career choice that has taken many years to reach it's pinnacle. It is clearly undermined when a camera owner turns up on set purely by virtue of owning a camera (not any more but in the early Red One days this did irreparable damage and it's legacy persists). Having been on the receiving end of that hostility (and survived!) I can say that now the camera market has resorted to normal operation (owner / operators being pushed once again to the periphery) there is still a clear residual under current of the belief that the Epic is the cheap, non professional alternative.

5.Fickle firmware. I'm of the opinion that the best thing Red can do is to consolidate firmware upgrades to solid incremental and significant upgrades and issue them a lot less often. I've lost count of the number of jobs I've done with cameras from other large rental companies where they come out with the wrong firmware - either out of date or incompatible (ie redmote out of date). As a camera owner I can log in and get the latest but not everyone is that position. My suggestion - reach out to a preferred pool of respected companies / owners for a beta program to test the new builds. Make it available to those individual / rental houses that have all the 3rd party stuff that normally conflicts (Lockits / Genlock boxes /Down converters / transmitters etc Basically all the real stuff you need and which has caused endless issues in the past). I know that goes against the community ethos of us all being in this together but minimising the harm that the current approach inflicts will be crucial going forward (Jim if any of this is of any use to you this I think is my most valid point!)

6. Codecs and confusion. I work with lots of DPs who don't know the difference between H264 and Prores, 422 and 444, CMOS and CCD, HD and 4K bayer etc etc. They still make lots of pretty pictures. Then I talk to the big post houses and am amazed when they don't know either. But they make amazing looking product. Then I realised that these guys are the operators not the technicians of this process. The guys who make the post houses run are in the basement not on the shoot. They are in the basement so they don't make it to the Production meeting with the Producer / Director / DOP and Flame Op. You can see where this is heading. I often feel like a lone voice (as DIT) across all departments on the shoot when it comes to knowing this stuff. I actually had a call once from an Agency producer asking me if I still had the "big" files from the Alexa shoot I worked on because they could only find the video files and needed to pull some stills. This despite my explaining Epic / Codex / Prores to them before the shoot even started (and on the day). So yes more education will always be needed but it has to target the right people. Reducation is great but it's reaching the enthusiastic (often camera owning) part of the community. This stuff needs to reach the telecine ops / PMs / PAs / editorial assistants. These guys don't generally come to Red events so you'll have to do that another way.

7.Direct to edit. I won't spend too long on this as I'll just sound like Toia I do lots of Alexa / Epic shoots - on both I do the same - transcode to DNXHD36. Offline houses in London are now specifying the same for both formats ie. LUT corrected (or at least not LOG) offline material with sunk sound where possible. I've been doing that since Alexa released despite being told by PAs when booking that they only want data wrangling on a laptop (they are told this by certain professional bodies in the UK and that this is why Alexa is a better format for commercials). Now that I've seen so many LOGC commercials broadcast I've almost thrown a shoe at my TV, I welcome the fact that people are finally starting to understand that all rushes from top end cameras need some kind of treatment. Even if it's a transcode to a lighter codec only. Provide a Redgamma3 Prores LT or DNXHD36 straight off the camera (as well as the RAW) and you will have a camera that is EASIER(no LUT correction)/CHEAPER(No Codex/Gemini) to post than Alexa. I'd get less of my DIT carts out that way but a lot more of my Epics so I figure it's better not getting up early to go to a shoot.....

Anyway just sharing some personal observations (which I will admit are likely to be specific to the UK / London market).

Cheers

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I think Steve brings up a very interesting debate and some very true observations.

We see the same thing here in Norway, but being a smaller market with lower budgets - I think Red has been a bit more successfull here (percent wise) than many other markets, still a lot of the prestigious feature projects chooses to go Alexa, which absolutely beats me. And we have been lucky to have had Gunleik running around between the national broadcaster, the national filmschool and some other places and showing the top DP´s and others how to get the most out of their Red footage.

I also see the up and coming guys, the newly eductated guys from film school who have done their homework comparing cameras, all love the RED cameras, while the older DP´s who used to work on film prefers the Alexa. (generally speaking of course)

So how do we change this? How do we make Epic´s marketshare grow to it´s potential, where it deserves to be?

RED is doing a lot for us already (besides providing us with the best digital cinema camera ever made), with their heavy advertising in ACS (got to love that, finally!!), new modules, keeping educating young and old, and making the new Dragon sensor which will make it even harder for people to choose the competition (yet some will still defy common sense and choose inferior cameras).

So we as the users, renters, DIT´s, DP´s need to do our part, and I don´t have all the answers but let me tell you what I do:

1) Keep the equipment in perfect condition, always checking and realigning back focus, black shade calibration, always sending the cameras out reset, cards formatted and ready to shoot.
2) I think we need to bust the myths that this thread clearly confirms exists, take every opportunity to bash the post production myth, the skin-tone myth, "the resolution doesn´t matter" myth, I take every opportunity to inform and educate about the benefits of RED cameras.
3) Help and guide your clients through post, always ask how they plan to do it, and give them advise on how to improve. I make sure to offer all my clients overnight encoding with the RR to whatever format they are using.
(By the way, the hardware encoding done by the Red Rocket seems to me superior to the software encoding done without the rocket, could this also be one thing that needs working on, to avoid disappointing future Red users?)
4) If any problem arises, I deal with it ruthlessly! I don´t want any situations to escalate on my watch, and if need be I will get in my car and drive over to the set and assist them (If I am not already there), no matter how small the problem, I deal with it, immedeatly, always. (Thankfully there are hardly any problems with the RED cameras that i own.) 99% of the calls I get, are due to lack of knowledge on part of the renter (and most of them recognise this); so based on the most common things that gets people stuck I advise new clients beforehand.

There is probably a lot more I do unconsciously.

My main point is, it´s not just up to RED to fix this, we that own and operate the cameras can probably do more.
This issue needs to be worked on on all levels, we have the best cinema camera, now let us realise it´s fullest business potential also.

Again thanks to Steve for this thread, I will love to read futher responses and perspectives.

One last thing, wishlist:
1. What I personally miss the most right now is the ability to run both the EVF and the LCD (preferably in a small form factor)
2. Proxy module for AVID/ProRes (HD/2k would be enough)

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

1. "Stock shaper" tool.

First light, mini Redcine app (no timeline or export) to define a starting point, a reference for a DP to rely on.
Red paintbox.

Locks the metadata in the pipeline.
Colorist starts with what he's supposed to. DP sleeps well.

Raw related variables solved.


2. Prores/DNXHD module.

Additional memory buffer for high speed and less RT processing limitations.

High speed improved. TV workflow solved.


3. Market approach focusing on modularity instead of small size.

Small size is just one option. Modularity is any.

Points out the unique advantage of the whole concept.


4. Less last minute changes if related to changing concepts and markets.

Helps with "perception".

 

[Max M.]

I totally agree with what jeff says (also like the wevi not working with the epic because it only has true 1080p is enough reason for some ac's to hate te red) and just like toia i love what jim said, the need dnxhd and prores. It's great to read that red is hearing and acknowledging this!! Great news.I think stability is a big thing where red got the bad perception from, camera's crashing on set, need of backup body, way to long boot time with the one, that kind of stuff gave it the name of aproblematic camera. Red learned and brings out firmware when tested better, but still every firmware update brings new problems, and that is a pain in the ass for everybody. Stability is the key element where red can improve on.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

This is a wonderful thread.. And I give Jim a lot of credit for standing up and pointing out what needs to be fixed along with Steve and everyone else. I am very proud to be a part of this system..

Jay

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Arri was founded in 1917, made their first film camera in 1924. Nearly 100 years to build a loyal user base and reputation. Red was founded in 1999 and released its first camera in 2007. Their histories are eerily similar. Arri revolutionized the industry with it's portable film cameras that were lightweight and perfect for news, especially around the time of the war. Their 35mm cameras were an alternative to the much bigger studio cameras. In the case of RED, well we all know the history. The cameras have evolved into small, modular digital 35mm powerhouses. Jim's point about reputation taking time is very true. You have to start somewhere, and they have tried to align themselves with filmmakers that carry some weight. This does a few things. It legitimizes what they are doing. It means that these filmmakers will talk to other filmmakers and share their experiences shooting RED, which will be presumably mostly positive (or else why would they shoot on RED when they can shoot on anything else they want). It means that producers and post people are following the lead of the filmmakers and not the other way around. The people that RED has aligned itself with are the types who are embracing new technology and techniques, seeing how far they can push the limits, etc. Winning over hardcore film people is a much slower process that requires a relationship to develop, one that is healthy and strives to look at the pros and cons of each image capture format, what can be improved on, what can be done to make the transition smoother.

Proclaiming film is dead is not the way to get there. Trust me on this one. I just worked with a very well respected DP who would rather be shooting on film than digital. To him, there is less hassle and he knows exactly how to get what he wants from the images. I have mentioned numerous times that as much as I love that digital cinematography is here and has matured to the level it has, I don't necessarily want to see film killed off. I think they are different enough in the way they capture images that they should be able to coexist as creative choices for DPs and directors. By killing it, you remove a tool from them, and that is not a good thing in my opinion. Now, economics may win out and keeping film alive forever may not be feasible but hopefully it has a chance to survive for the foreseeable future. RED can survive just fine in an ecosystem that includes film. I know Jim has a huge respect for film and is striving to achieve the Gold standard amongst digital image capture, so I think this is also part of the perception problem. Many DPs who love film probably feel that Jim wants to kill off film as soon as possible. I believe Jim wants to get to the point where the images from RED cameras stand on their own and those who like the images will choose RED because of that. In other words, they make the choices based on what the tool can achieve for them and not because of personal agendas, not because they see it as a threat, none of that BS. They go by what their eyes are telling them. That will take time. I suppose in the meantime, you have new generations of filmmakers with fewer ties to film or industry standards who are able to embrace everything with fresh perspective. This certainly is an area where RED has a chance to do great things.

I worked in post for the first 10 years of my career. I've always loved cameras but was never enthusiastic about video cameras. The DVX-100 was the first "affordable" video camera that peaked my interest and I produced a feature that was shot on that camera. But it was in 2006 when I started to learn about what Jim was up to with RED that really sparked an interest in cameras again for me. I had never been able to afford to shoot film after leaving film school. But I loved film cameras, cine lenses, all the magic that goes along with that process. With RED One I saw a camera that excited me like film cameras but in a digital RAW format that fell into a price range that was attainable. We can pixel peep all day long but it's the concept and the eventual execution of that initial camera system that got me on board. I think with the same passion and dedication, RED can continue to push the envelope. By embracing industry veterans and the up and coming filmmakers of the world, they can have the best of all worlds. By listening and working with their user base they can improve the cameras, the supporting gear, the business side, etc and eventually earn that reputation that goes along with having decades of experience.

Jim always jokes that in the early years they knew nothing and now they know enough to be dangerous. I would counter that with, in the early years they knew enough to be dangerous and now they know enough to have a target on their back. It's certainly better to be in the crosshairs than to be irrelevant.

 

[Paul Provost]

Speaking of perception, hiring a pr firm and a more broad and aggressive ad campaign might go a long way. But I will say it doesn't help having users posting drawings of "fantasy worlds with unicorns and spaceships". This stuff does get around it tends to be what is remembered by non camera people, after accomplishments like Prometheus are forgotten.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

it doesn't help having users posting drawings of "fantasy worlds with unicorns and spaceships". This stuff does get around it tends to be what is remembered by non camera people, after accomplishments like Prometheus are forgotten.

In that case the lack of unicorns might have been the deciding factor for Prometheus.

 

[roryhinds]

I'm hoping the DNxHD MXF and ProRes module won't cost as high as people are saying ($13,000) if it does then it kind of shoots owners in the foot as you will have to raise your rental rates to cover the added expense of having this module which in todays market is extremely hard so we might just end up still loosing out to Alexa but now on cost.

Or the owner swallows the cost and lowers their rental prices so productions get gear for free which seems to be more the trend these days, this however it impossible to sustain this with as a guy has to eat and if you're just buying gear that you can't make money on just to rent out the gear you already purchased then what is the point.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Speaking of perception, hiring a pr firm and a more broad and aggressive ad campaign might go a long way. But I will say it doesn't help having users posting drawings of "fantasy worlds with unicorns and spaceships". This stuff does get around it tends to be what is remembered by non camera people, after accomplishments like Prometheus are forgotten.

This has begun. RED is advertising in industry mags such as American Cinematographer and I assume they will branch out wherever they feel they need to. Word of mouth is powerful, but straight advertising can also be effective in conjunction with word of mouth. I think this was a smart move on RED's part and the ads they are doing are very classy. You can be rebellious and classy and I like this approach by RED.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

Here is the key to the castle. Jim, please buy this patent and make my Epic do this and everything will be peachy. We will all make a ton of money and some great looking stuff too.

I don't understand half the stuff in here but it sure seems like its what we all really want. A Multi codec camera that shoots RAW 4k and 2k prores/dnxhd to the same card, with no module. Yes please.


http://www.google.com/patents/US20070126875

 

[Petri Teittinen]

I'm hoping the DNxHD MXF and ProRes module won't cost as high as people are saying ($13,000)

It can't be that expensive. Consider the prices of Atomos Ninja and others like it.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Perception & Stakeholders

Perception & Stakeholders

Let's stipulate up front that for many veteran image makers there is a logical desire to maintain the status quo. Beyond that, I think we need to drill down into the needs of key stakeholders in the chain:

1) Producers/suits and other decision makers.

Paraphrasing an old expression, "nobody ever got fired for choosing the Arri camera". I know this seems basic, but IMO it underlies a great deal of the skewed perception issue that Steve identifies. If you have a decent paying job in the production industry what incentive do you have to risk that gig by choosing the Epic and the eco-system that supports it. Properly managed the Epic can be a more cost effective choice that Alexa or F65 but if its not your money... Typically these people also have to negotiate contracts with post houses who have plenty of incentive to stick with the status quo.

2) Post vendors.

Typically post has a big investment in hardware and experienced staff familiar with existing methodologies. Micheal Cioni's LightIRON is an obvious example of someone who invested in the newer technologies without having to ROI older hardware or re-train personnel. Facilities like his are still the minority. Large vendors like Technicolor and Fotokem have started hedging their bets by adding more file based services and writing off older gear for tax savings. In a dynamic market like LA, post houses are far more likely to do whatever it takes to satisfy big clients, immediate profit margins be damned, than post facilities in places where their reputation and talent make them less vulnerable. As others have noted lowering the cost of entry is seen as a legitimate threat to their business survival so why would they want to compete against low overhead file based shops? Just tell clients a couple horror stories about boutique shops that hosed a couple of big jobs they weren't ready for and then offer them a discount. Wouldn't you?

3) 1st ACs

I have often said that the 3 most critical positions to making your day are 1st AD, Scripty and 1st AC. As noted the non-standard RED form factor and connectors are a bane to ACs who are asked to interface with industry standard AKS. Some of RED's innovations have resulted in simpler and easier ways to accomplish key tasks, others have simply created confusion and frustration.

4) DPs

Shooting 35mm film the skill set and just gut intuition about what the results of specific choices are going to be in the finished image is part of the true value and also mystique of many DPs. As David Mullen and others have noted it is easier to sleep at night having seen the image on the monitor. However the flip side of that, is that the mastery of the "black art" (yes, we camera nerds know its actually pretty scientific but to the less knowledgeable...) of exposure that an experienced film Cinematographer brought to the table, and charged a hefty rate for, is de-mystified quite a bit. Does that sound like job security to you?

I must also point out recent testing and discussion of the Epic, Alexa and F65 by folks like Geoff Boyle, Neil Smith and others on CML who claim it takes more work and knowledge to make the Epic look good vs the other 2. We can argue all day long about how much of that is due to the issues that are more about the state of post hardware and software tools than the data set created by the Epic. That said, these are not dumb guys and I don't think at this point they are just looking to bash the Epic.

Great thread guys.

Cheers - #19

 

[Ross Isaacs]

There are many RED-heads out there. That includes PJ, Soderbergh and Fincher. Add Ridley, Wolski, Burgess and a ton of "others". But there are many that would still like to see us fail. Why? Our attitude. History.

Jim

I am now a Deadhead, Parrothead and a Redhead.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I think a lot of the negative impressions about Red are based on the original MX sensor and the earliest color science -- when I tested the new MX sensor and color science for the pilot of "The Chicago Code", frankly it was very easy to shoot and color-correct. And recently I talked to a colorist who had previously complained about Red footage who had just finished color-correcting a feature shot on an Epic and was pleasantly surprised at how well it went through the process. So a lot of the negative opinions disappear as people gain more experience with the latest generation of Red technology. But the problem is that many people work on long term projects like a TV series and will not get a chance to switch tools except every couple of years, so their impressions can be outdated.

 

[Mark Toia]

I'm amazed and stunned that some of you guys have to live in this world were producers tell you what camera you have to shoot. I feel for you. honestly...

Well at least the Arri Alexa and Sony F65 are good cameras as well. Maybe not what you want to use, but your still going to get a good image from them.

Here is the key to the castle. Jim, please buy this patent and make my Epic do this and everything will be peachy. We will all make a ton of money and some great looking stuff too.

I don't understand half the stuff in here but it sure seems like its what we all really want. A Multi codec camera that shoots RAW 4k and 2k prores/dnxhd to the same card, with no module. Yes please.
http://www.google.com/patents/US20070126875

It's coming....

 

[John Hall]

I have been talking to a production company in Australia about shooting their shows on my Scarlet. Their main concern is the reliability of the camera. My Scarlet has never missed a beat, the cameras they have been using have been very unreliable to the point that some freelance cameramen won't work with them. But they tell me that these cameras can be serviced locally, Red has to be sent back to the US. If Red allowed service centres to be set up in Australia the "perception" would be Red cameras are more reliable. Weird logic, don't use a camera that is reliable but keep using cameras that are unreliable but can be fixed (constantly) locally. But this is a perception that red could fix easily. Allow existing maintenance companys service red cameras.

 

[Poi Boy]

Hey Jim, Just catching up on this dragon thread, very exciting news. Never ceases to amaze me that industry people in general or customers specifically still bitch about Red, how is that possible ? living in a different reality maybe. Keep up the incredible work !
Aloha
A

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I pushed hard to get RED onto a shoot. It was undoubtedly the right tool for the job. They upon my recommendation chose the RED.

On set everyone hated the RED and I out of honest curiosity wanted to hear their thoughts on it. The consensus was "It's a toy." "It always breaks." "It's awkward to use as an AC." "It's constantly glitching."

By lunch the Epic's touchscreen wouldn't work until a reboot. By 2pm it was completely dead. Luckily there was a second body only half an hour out. It's tough to persuade someone to use something if that's their experience. I think different people also have different tolerances for 'glitchiness'. Coming from the post world, spending 30 seconds to reboot an app if the touchscreen stops working is just general operating procedure several times a day. It's easy for someone who's used to mechanical reliability to perceive it as a more egregious problem--even though the entirety of the workflow might be faster (no gate checks for instance, faster mag changes... etc). We're inclined to notice the new problems while ignoring new efficiencies.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Obviously the perception is important. So, I wholehartely agree with that aspect of Steve's assessment.
Unfortunately, there is no way around real or percieved weaknesses in technical aspects of Red post production. If you are planning to finish with strictly cuts and dissolves, great! But the moment you need to include VFX work by the third party, not so great. The idea of RAW is immediately out the window. Now there is a need to decide on color space, gamma settings, intermediate file format etc. But now everything is baked in. And let's hope, that camera department didn't tweak camera's metadata look. If that happens, it's more grief. Do you want to grade the Red image, that is off-speed? No RAW again. How about not allowing to use GPU debayer? Yes, I sound like a broken record. Yes, we had been told numerous times, that GPU debayer is difficult and of inferior quality. Fine. Why not allow the GPU debayer for editing and grading, but only allowing CPU debayer for final render? And give clients what they want, Prores and MXF capabilities right out of the camera. Changing the sensor will not alleviate any of these questions.

I agree that RAW goes out the window ASAP. I disagree that it's harder to work with than Alexa in this respect. Have you ever tried to get a nice clean linear EXR out of an Alexa LogC file? You have to know what ISO they shot on-set. It's a nightmare. REDCode I just setup a batch job on the farm and away it goes. I know exactly what I'll get.