Perception

[Will Keir]

Still nothing.

http://www.imdb.com/find?q=Mark,+th...+week+then+I+probably+will+in+a+5+years&s=all



I know Mark has got to be working on something because we were talking about writers a while back and he said he finally got a good one. To shoot his own feature if nothing else, right? Shooting commercials is a great way to lead up to eventually shooting a feature, so I was surprised that nothing was on IMDB, Mark shoots/edits with a feature film style.

He felt sorry for people that get "told" what to shoot with, I feel sorry for him. 20 years, not a single IMDB credit. That's called a "hip check" and I love Mark's independent spirit. David Mullen might get "told" what to shoot when working creatively with others, I don't feel sorry for him. I look to David as a professional, someone that gives solid advice and who put's himself out there for the sake of others. Last time I asked for advice and Toia chimed in, he told me how exposing the R1 was easy, how his kid can do it, but of course with the R1 there was more to it then exposure to look. Not really that helpful.

 

[James T Mather]

The predominant dialogue I hear about the Alexa is that the pictures seem to more closely resemble film and have less of a digital feel - something I put down to dynamic range and skin tone handling - much of which is controllable by the DOP, but nonetheless). I know HDRx is available but this requires an extra post step that is hard to convince post houses to perform when transcoding is taking place at night by some trainee- perhaps the option to use it should be set on the camera and auto-locked in on the camera - forcing it's deployment unless unlocked. I'm hoping that the new sensor will address this film look question as opposed to purely upping resolution. Including HDRx with some kind of on-camera viewing system will massively contribute to this (this may be impossible for technical reasons).

 

[Marc Wielage]

The predominant dialogue I hear about the Alexa is that the pictures seem to more closely resemble film and have less of a digital feel - something I put down to dynamic range and skin tone handling - much of which is controllable by the DOP, but nonetheless). I know HDRx is available but this requires an extra post step that is hard to convince post houses to perform when transcoding is taking place at night by some trainee...

You get what you pay for, James. There are great post houses where you get very experienced people to transcode dailies, and then there are crap places that have interns who have no clue.

HDRx is not a panacea, nor is it a cure for bad lighting. I think it can work for special circumstances, but motion artifacts are always something to have to factor in.

Speaking with my colorist hat on, I don't think the Alexa necessarily "more closely resembles film" any more than any digital camera, and I worked with film for several decades. I think so much of that look is dependent on lenses, lighting, and exposure than it is the platform or pickup. What I do hear from producers is that their perception is that the Alexa is faster to work with in post. I think the reality is that both can work fine, depending on the skill level and preparedness of the DIT. But I have no problem working with RedRaw or Arriraw Log files. They both make good pictures, properly exposed.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I am late to reply to this thread but Steve's comments and observations about the current situation in the industry could not have been better written.

There is a disconnect between reality and fact and we have to slowly and without fanboy fanaticism convince producers, directors and post that Red is a viable choice along with Alexa and F65....

 

[James T Mather]

You get what you pay for, James. There are great post houses where you get very experienced people to transcode dailies, and then there are crap places that have interns who have no clue.

HDRx is not a panacea, nor is it a cure for bad lighting. I think it can work for special circumstances, but motion artifacts are always something to have to factor in.

Speaking with my colorist hat on, I don't think the Alexa necessarily "more closely resembles film" any more than any digital camera, and I worked with film for several decades. I think so much of that look is dependent on lenses, lighting, and exposure than it is the platform or pickup. What I do hear from producers is that their perception is that the Alexa is faster to work with in post. I think the reality is that both can work fine, depending on the skill level and preparedness of the DIT. But I have no problem working with RedRaw or Arriraw Log files. They both make good pictures, properly exposed.

I too exclusively shot film for twenty years until Digital pushed it out of the way. So now we've both got our bona-fides out of the way we can discuss the question at hand. I am not speaking here about some nickel and dime fleapit but the main commercials post house here. I am aware you get what you pay for - however, this is redundant advice as I work as a DOP not a post supervisor/producer and once we have shot the piece, I have limited control over where it is edited. Transcoding (done at night usually) rarely takes HDRx into account (because they don't use Redcine anyway but rather Baselight). I am perfectly aware HDRx is not a lighting panacea (but thanks for the pointer). If you read my post properly (as opposed to schooling me in remedial photography) you would understand that this is what I am hearing - from PRODUCERS no less - and as of yesterday, a director was demanding we shoot Alexa. I am aware of the the Dop's contribution to the image and the effect lenses, lighting, art direction, filtration, iso rating, exposure, etc have on the image. I wasn't discussing that but rather the perception of the system. Telling these people that they've simply got it wrong isn't the best solution in my opinion. The Alexa has got faintly more dynamic range: this is a fact. Yes, DoP's can control this but there is no doubt that Red can, under certain conditions, look more "digital". To wit: Drive Angry and Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance. It can also, no doubt, look film like : Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Prometheus, Social Network

However, the original poster is correct - Red / Epic (although capable of producing as fine an image as any camera) has got a perception problem as compared against the Alexa. I am hearing it more and more myself. I think rabid fanboyism hasn't helped this perception - as it leads people to assume they are not receiving a balanced view (much like fundamentalism of any kind). The post/transcoding workflow is also hindering it as producers see it as a headache - the need to add a transcode step in order to work with the camera as opposed to one where this is not an additional cost is hurting the system. An easily edited right-out-of-the-camera format option would certainly help. 5k is seen as overkill for some markets - 6k certainly so - attending to some other aspects of the system might help this perception issue.

 

[Marc Wielage]

If you read my post properly (as opposed to schooling me in remedial photography) you would understand that this is what I am hearing - from PRODUCERS no less - and as of yesterday, a director was demanding we shoot Alexa.

I hear the same things. If I'm part of the conversation, I'm quick to tell them that Red can work, provided you have a system in place. Mike Most has correctly said many times in past discussions that Alexa has quickly grabbed a lot of the episodic TV business in America, and a lot of that is the perception that it's faster and more reliable than Red Epic. I don't think it's necessarily true anymore, but producers are a superstitious lot, and this wouldn't be the first time non-technical people make technical decisions that affect the camera department and workflow.

The post/transcoding workflow is also hindering it as producers see it as a headache - the need to add a transcode step in order to work with the camera as opposed to one where this is not an additional cost is hurting the system. An easily edited right-out-of-the-camera format option would certainly help. 5k is seen as overkill for some markets - 6k certainly so - attending to some other aspects of the system might help this perception issue.

I agree completely.

 

[Paul E. McCarthy]

We are in a new age of filmmaking. Cameras are everywhere, DPs are everywhere. The camera is no longer a magic box that only a guy from Poland or Hungary knows how to use. The monitor destroyed the mystique of cinematography and exposed the DPs process that used to be hidden inside the eyepiece to the world.

We also live in a world where DPs work for Reducers and not Producers. Before film was the only option, the cost was set, the images where beautiful, the camera worked with swiss watch precision everyone was happy. Now the camera is just another place for a producer to shave some more cash into his wallet. They think alexa is cheaper, and easier. Its not cheaper, it may be easier though.
The REDrocket hurts RED more than anything. Its an additional cost.
Its expensive, they break when moving them around and they are not readily available or easily fixable

Please RED dump the REDrocket. Create another firmware option that shoots log Prores or DnxHD, that, with the Dragon will shut then haters mouths.

Perceptions will change dramatically and Cameras will rent again.

just my 2 cents

 

[Marc Wielage]

The monitor destroyed the mystique of cinematography and exposed the DPs process that used to be hidden inside the eyepiece to the world.

I disagree. Good lighting still requires lots of skill, discipline, and experience to do well. A lot of what a DP does is problem solving, and the only way to learn that is by doing it. The camera does some of the work, but to me, all the real magic happens in front of the lens. Great digital cameras have not necessarily made this process easier, but it has made filmmaking more accessible.

This is no different than when Apple came out with a Laser Printer for $5000, which drastically changed the typesetting and design business. But merely giving people the tools does not necessarily enable them to use them well.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I think the "indie" RED rental scene is a bit different then anything i've seen, it's great and vibrant, but it has a tendency to propagate "rumor/negative" comments that get passed around randomly and damage the Red brand. The RED indie rental seen also does a lot of Good, in killing the FUD that goes around. But in the old days, and this is still true for the big rental houses which there a still a few around - you had "authorized" rental/dealer ... where the guy you rented from fully checked out the camera - I mean completely broke down the camera and cleaned the gears, validated optics, etc ... for each rental.

In the RED Indie rental scene, some times the service is beyond awesome (basically u get a personal tech/DIT), other times it's totally random - in almost all cases the person renting is not authorized by red to do so (and to my knowledge has not taken service training classes by RED, nor perform RED validated service procedures before rental). What happens then is things mess up, and of course the blame game starts (often publicly on boards) - which tarnish the brand.

I'm not saying RED should turn into Panavision, but something where if people wanted to be "authorized" Red Rental Agency - they would pay an extra fee and be on a different support line(probably under NDA and have direct technical support and board like other authorized dealers have). At minimum i think people in the red indie rental scene (both lessor and lessee), need to talk to their RED REP on issues before publishing to the boards and using negative headlines.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I'm not saying RED should turn into Panavision, but something where if people wanted to be "authorized" Red Rental Agency - they would pay an extra fee and be on a different support line(probably under NDA and have direct technical support and board like other authorized dealers have). At minimum i think people in the red indie rental scene (both lessor and lessee), need to talk to their RED REP on issues before publishing to the boards and using negative headlines.

I think that's a very good idea. Having a Red Authorized local rental house would at least ensure that the technicians have completed a basic minimum level of training.

Avid and Pro Tools have very similar certification programs. It doesn't necessarily tell you the person is good, ​but at least you know they're not inept.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Requiring Red Authorized rental house staff will help with the larger rental houses but I think the lone owner ops will lose out rental wise if such a mandate becomes required... I think the fact that Arri is releasing so many camera models will eventually help Red and hurt Arri. They are playing the same bs games as Canon and the other big guys, very few changes model to model and the cameras depreciate immediately since a new model is always coming out. Seems like a bag of hurt to buy into companies that stick it to you like that... I don't care if my Red sits on a shelf at least I know I can upgrade the damn thing when I have time to use it again

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Great post Steve, with some great replies,

all I can add to this is that in my Travels I have met and collaborated and worked and or just talked with all kind of Filmmakers, from High end Hollywood Professionals, to the No budget 5D shooter, I have done Tests of Alexa against Epic, and almost all the time Epic won the job, at exception of couple of times were the Alexa despite being the Most Wrong tool for the Job was chosen just the same.

At the end there are strong forces of opposition, especially in Italy, same with PASTA, there are many new companies that are actually bringing to market a Great Pasta product, but are struggling acceptance because they are new, because some say the wrong things about, there is a vast miss conception about the product, most people in Italy still think that Healthy food is tasteless, so they don't buy it, and they are wrong.

Fact is that it will take time, and time will be GOOD to RED that I can promise you, as I see it as it is, and if RED continues i the road they are traveling, an continue to bring to market the incredible innovations, and added Pieces to the Modularity of the EPIC, plus all kind of Pro accessories, then the competition will have little room to play, and they will need to truly step it up.

FILM IS DEAD, no one or very few would want to accept that, yet KODAK did, and KODAK is no more, it is called PROGRESS.

RED against Alexa, or what ever other camera, it is however not only a matter of whom is the best, but whom is the best for the given job, yet many times this no matters either as the wrong camera for the job is still chosen, based on miss leading information, and or simply on the fact of the person in charge been Bias towards the other camera, for the Name, for the Perks,m for the fact that He/She is more familiar with the name and trust it more, and or for simply not been yet understanding of how to bring the images to the delivery and get the same results that the Mega Stars of Hollywood are getting out of it.

At the end of the day, we can't have 100% of the people all eating the same PASTA brand, neither we can expect that the entire world use only the RED EPIC, but more and more are however, using it...