Major Announcement...

[Steve Gibby]

Graeme, sometimes my head hurts after I read your posts. I think it's my brain growing:nerd:

LOL...aw ya mental wimp...you don't understand Graeme sometimes?! Join the crowd...

IMO just nod and agree because he always seems to know what hes talking about. Plus he's got the flick on the timeworn colloquilism: "If you can't dazzle 'em with your footwork, baffle 'em with your brain...or better yet, do both!"

Graeme was first in line when they originally handed out the techno-savvy brains...

 

[Corrado Silveri]

Assuming a linear system, you can't get any more detail in your digital representation of an analogue signal if the digital quantisation noise is lower than the analogue noise floor. Digital quantisation noise is approximately (6db * number of bits) below full signal. So, if you have around >66db SNR, going beyond 12bits doesn't capture you any more detail, but it can capture the noise floor smoother. And hence that's where we get 1bit = 6db from. It's actually around 6.02, or precisely 20Log10(2^n).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantisation_noise

Graeme

Graeme, many thanks.
I'm 40 years old now.
One year ago, I was thinking that my study was over.
Now, almost everyday, I find myself hanging with dictionary, wikipedia, books and... whatever "reliable source".
(Trying to understand "in depht" your posts)

I have a lot of experience.
Now I'm a student again!


Thanks again.

Corrado.

 

[jbeale]

excessively theoretical notes about camera design

excessively theoretical notes about camera design

A 12bit image is already throwing away data from the real world. You could record 12 stops to 32 bit and get really reallly smooth gradations. Eventually however it's just sort of overkill for most situations. All A/D conversions involve quantization and loss [...]

If we are speaking theoretically.... ultimately, cameras record light. Light comes in discrete units called "photons". You may think this is not relevant in practical cases, but in very dim conditions, the discrete photon nature of light actually does become significant to the noise level in real cameras. Image sensors like CCDs and CMOS chips detect discrete electrons (or electron-hole pairs) caused by absorption of photons. As I recall the peak quantum efficiency (electrons out per photons in) of a good quality sensor is better than 0.5, although I don't know what the readout noise level of any specific design is relative to these quanta.

My point is, at some level, a camera measures something that is already quantized: first as photons hitting the sensor, and then as electrons coming out of the sensor. So even setting aside analog noise, it is not true to say that you can always get more resolution (smoother gradients, etc.) if you just had more bits in your A/D. I don't know in practical terms where these quantum effects start becoming a noticeable part of the total noise level, but I know the best modern CCD sensors are already well inside of that ballpark.

Of course A/D design also involves tradeoffs as well. I'm actually amazed that there even is a 12-bit A/D design that works at the amazing readout rates necessary for the framerates and resolutions supported by the Red camera.

 

[Simon Dean]

Couple of questions;

So any bits beyond the LSB contribute to the signal, giving in Red's case 6x11=66dB? However, as it is quoted as >66dB does this mean you could lose information if the SNR is actually greater than 66dB?

Also, how does quantisation noise affect the image? I know how it affects audio and dithering is used to limit the apparent effect - i.e. it's still there but not as noticeable. Can you apply dithering to the sampling of image data?

...just in case I happen to be making own sensor...ahem, errr, or maybe not.
(But I'm interested anyway)

 

[Adrian T.]

Take your time, Jim! Make it right.
Absolutely no problem with the delay.

 

[Clayton Harper]

Arri's actually pretty excited about the camera. It means they'll sell more accessories and lenses! They were super cool about letting RED use their equipment at NAB.

While I was pricing an MB20 and follow focus, the booth guys were joking that Arri was going to just become an accessory manufacturer thanks to Red. Then I thought "not if Red makes a mattebox and follow focus". :tongue:

 

[Rune Hansen]

Arri

Arri

Arri's actually pretty excited about the camera. It means they'll sell more accessories and lenses! They were super cool about letting RED use their equipment at NAB.

Treated us like idiots at their booth. Had the RED RESERVATION HOLDER badge in a very visible location, and at first they ignored us, and we asked about gear for cameras. The answer was a very condescending "ah for the red, well some simple lenses and a clip on mattebox is enough then."

When I made it clear to them that we were comparison shopping at least one full set of MPs, a couple of production matteboxes, studio follow focus, etc, they started paying some interest, but only for a few minutes.

If only someone else made quite as good matteboxes as they do... I think the lenses will be Cookes though, and I'll make damned sure to send the Arri guy a picture when we get them. I hate the attitude game.

-rune

 

[Clayton Harper]

I hate the attitude game.

-rune

Relax, they are just sad about losing their jobs. :tongue:

 

[Finner]

Treated us like idiots at their booth. Had the RED RESERVATION HOLDER badge in a very visible location, and at first they ignored us, and we asked about gear for cameras. The answer was a very condescending "ah for the red, well some simple lenses and a clip on mattebox is enough then."

When I made it clear to them that we were comparison shopping at least one full set of MPs, a couple of production matteboxes, studio follow focus, etc, they started paying some interest, but only for a few minutes.

If only someone else made quite as good matteboxes as they do... I think the lenses will be Cookes though, and I'll make damned sure to send the Arri guy a picture when we get them. I hate the attitude game.

-rune

Hey Rune check out the "Matte Box Woes" thread, Hope may be on the horizon.

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!

 

[Banexo]

Great news, that's for sure. :gun:

 

[Ken Corben]

Maybe building this camera is more like making a movie than I realized: it's never 'finished', only 'abandoned'. At one point Jim will have to let her go...

Well said - A RED neutral party told me today regarding the announced delay, "I told you so." I replied with a comment that even with further as yet unannounced delays for what ever reason when would we see a camera like this from one of the majors at the current price point? HUH, not in my life time.

Let alone a delay for an upgrade openly announced to RED's customers. The business norm would have been an announcement in the Fall for an optionlal board upgrade for only $2900, no? Now that speaks of integrity in my book.

And yes, Jim will have to let her go at some point

I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!

Man, Gibby's going to booked globally like Al Gore and just as hard to reach.

 

[Rune Hansen]

Red i Norge

Red i Norge

I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!

Lykke til med det!

-rune
#84, #85
fra Stavanger til Mexico

 

[david farland]

Assuming a linear system, you can't get any more detail in your digital representation of an analogue signal if the digital quantisation noise is lower than the analogue noise floor. Digital quantisation noise is approximately (6db * number of bits) below full signal. So, if you have around >66db SNR, going beyond 12bits doesn't capture you any more detail, but it can capture the noise floor smoother. And hence that's where we get 1bit = 6db from. It's actually around 6.02, or precisely 20Log10(2^n).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantisation_noise

Graeme

Like any system you try and gain whatever advantage possible at each stage.

Years ago I designed circuitry around 16 bit (96db) a/d converters so people could look at those sneaky molecules. It resolved down to angstroms.
Apart from usual noise reduction practices in reducing ripple, CMRR, etc, oversampling the input was indeed the easiest software technique to drop the noise floor.
I guess Sony gain snr leverage when they oversample in a slight different way from 4k image to HD.
Also, I'm not familiar with your ccd and a/d circuitry but suspect you're not in the position to actually over sample the full >4K array for any one frame. Pity.

Cheers,

 

[Joel Kaye]

Arri's actually pretty excited about the camera.

Oh yeah - I thought I saw the whole D20 team getting drunk at a club in Vegas. That must explain it. ;-)

 

[Damien Molineaux]

I have a bad habit, of looking at things from a different point of view than the person opposite, next to or I'm speaking with. It has caused many heated discussions and sometimes made me unpopular, but at other times it has managed to solve problems, enlighten a debate or simply allow someone to seet things in a different perspective.

Anyhow, it's amazing how a delay in delivery is announced and everyone says "great news". Ouch, I'm going to get beat on the head for that. I'm sorry but I find it really odd to announce an upgrade was plannned for a camera not yet shipping. Now don't get me wrong, I've been expecting delays, we all know making this camera, all the accessories, the workflow, etc. is no small fee. As a matter of fact, it's absolutley amazing and I'm the first one to take my hat off to Jim, Graeme and the rest of the team. I just don't quite understand the explaination. So you've made some improvements on a major component, and decided to include it this late in the developement process, which will result in delays in shipping. Ok, I'm with you, thank you for never quitting and always wanting to give us more. I just ask that before you give us a new ship date, please please try (you are allowed to fail), but try to give us dates we can plan on.

With my regards,
Damien

 

[Zk2007]

Well said - A RED neutral party told me today regarding the announced delay, "I told you so."

Yep. Same thing happened to me, twice actually. One even went on to say "and you will see, they will find another reason to delay it again."
Man, talk about exercising self control. I wanted to...well, I just held back.

 

[Brook Willard]

Oh yeah - I thought I saw the whole D20 team getting drunk at a club in Vegas. That must explain it. ;-)

Heheh. I know RED seems like a bad thing to them now... but it's a good thing for the user in the long run. Even if not everybody wants a RED, it'll force the other companies to come to the table. You can't put a half-million dollar HD camera next to a $17,500 4K camera and expect it to last. All of these companies will have to adapt in some way... and I'm excited to see what they can bring to the table.

And re: David's oversampling idea... if you're talking about straight pixel oversampling, it wouldn't work in this case, as the scaling associated with oversampling would require in-camera debayering.

 

[Anders Holck]

I'll bet they'll sell a lot more ultraprimes, FF-4's, and MB-20's with the RED on the market.

 

[CJ Roy]

First off, I'm still getting the RED camera, regardless. It looked great at NAB, enough said. I mostly stick to being an audience and avoid participating in discussions on this board because of the lack of civility from the extremes on both sides of the argument, but there seems to be few other avenues to ask a question to Red.
Now that that is out of the way...

1) I am happy that there will be increased dynamic range and reduced noise. That's a no-brainer and a win for everyone. However, for those of us reservation holders #1-100, I thought we'd only be getting a firmware update or two later on around late summer. I had heard nothing about a planned board replacement. Was this the plan always? Are there any other hardware replacements planned? I ask, because I've been tentatively planning to shoot outside the country, non-stop and may not be able to be back for, what I would assume, factory installed updates.

2) The delay. Is it months or weeks of delays? Can we get a ballpark on this? It may not be relevant for people who are getting their cameras next year, but for those of us who were told we're getting it in a little over a month, there are a lot of ramifications to a delay. Do we hold off on selling our current cameras, do we hold off on purchasing non-red accessories. Clients? I understand the dates were tentative, but I would expect the company to formally address those of us most affected by delays. Is there any possibility of that?

Also, this is not related to the above, but just a humble request... Trying to keep good track of the info on this board is getting harder to do, you really have to dig for the information. You could read through a mile of postings and not come up with much valid information, mainly speculative unless it comes from Red itself. Last year, there seemed to be some newsletters to Redcore. Can we continue that and have formal newsletters & announcements emailed?

Thanks for your time. I'm very impressed with the camera, a huge supporter and plunking the deposit down last year @ NAB was one of the easiest decisions I've made.

cheers.

CJ Roy
www.cjroy.net
cj@cjroy.net
510.381.3000