Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Major Announcement...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Great news, in so many ways. A brilliant move.

I know a few other people have asked this, and I know Jim said we'd have an updated schedule in a couple of weeks, but is there any chance we can get any sort of hint about likely delays sooner than that? My camera's due in October, and I'd like to shoot in November. I'd hate to have to shoot in December, because it gets too hot and stormy in Australia. If you can't say anything yet, no worries, but if you can, my day just got better.
 
yes, please advice on shipping schedule as soon as you can.
Aloha
-A
 
Jim...

stop please...
What i saw at NAB was already superb.

...can't stand the waiting...(back to work...)

Cheers!
 
Eirik Tyrihjel said:
I don´t mind the delay, just make sure Gibby takes his #8 to Norway (or Scandinavia at least) so we can have a close look, and get even more excited!
Click to expand...

LOL...I'm working on that!

No firm dates yet though...
 
Simes said:
Couple of questions;

So any bits beyond the LSB contribute to the signal, giving in Red's case 6x11=66dB? However, as it is quoted as >66dB does this mean you could lose information if the SNR is actually greater than 66dB?

Also, how does quantisation noise affect the image? I know how it affects audio and dithering is used to limit the apparent effect - i.e. it's still there but not as noticeable. Can you apply dithering to the sampling of image data?

...just in case I happen to be making own sensor...ahem, errr, or maybe not.
(But I'm interested anyway)
Click to expand...

Well, 12bits gives you 72db SNR, so that's a bit of comfort room over > 66db. Going beyond that gives you no more information, but could make the noise floor look smoother, if just as noisey. However, that's something you can also do in software if you need to.

And sorry for getting so technical, but if people will ask me questions...... Just don't get me started on chromatic adaptation.....

Graeme
 
I'm looking forward to Shooting my first short on RED, but pre-ship upgrades seem like a reasonable delay. I don't mind the delay as I'm busy making money to pay for mine?

It don't grow on tree's

well.. not any that Ive planted so far:greedy:
 
Whatever controversy this generates will disappear really quick once the camera is out, and the better the camera is, the quicker the delays will be forgotten. A little delay for a nice improvement at no increase in cost sounds like a great deal to me.
 
Hey Graeme. I for one love your technical answers.. don't always understand but always try to and enjoy.
Aloha
-A
 
No controversy. Thank you Red team once again for being so loyal to us all. Take your time and get it right the first time. You guys go to the moon!
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Well, 12bits gives you 72db SNR, so that's a bit of comfort room over > 66db. Going beyond that gives you no more information, but could make the noise floor look smoother, if just as noisey. However, that's something you can also do in software if you need to.

And sorry for getting so technical, but if people will ask me questions...... Just don't get me started on chromatic adaptation.....

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme,

You can let us have as much technical detail as you see fit!! I for one am very interested in the workings/decision process within the camera's design.

The pictures I have seen so far (at NAB) are fantastic but I can still see room for improvement as obviously you guys do too:)

Now on the chromatic adaption front....how are you dealing with Chromatic Aberration....no 2 lenses are the same you know:)

Maybe we need a "Graeme's Technical Thread" so we don't bore the creatives:)

Cheers

Michael
 
rgdfilmsRED said:
No controversy. Thank you Red team once again for being so loyal to us all.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If I've read everything correctly, there's not a single utterence of controversy in this thread. We're all happy to get a better camera. Even the delay isn't controversial. It's completely fine. I just wish I knew exactly what the delay is, so I can start book my cast and crew with some certainty. But Jim said we'll know in two weeks, so I can wait. It's not as though we really have to be patient with Red, because everything moves so fast, so all's well.
 
Great news guys! How much more dynamic range will there be? One or two more stops would be really cool (what's the limit for 12bit though?)

Roxco said:
Looks like another door opens for software to add grain in post.

Why can't you just make a Tyco Camera for the masses? ;)

BTW: Thanks for the update,

Rosco

P.S. Check out the Toyco raster and s/n ratio below

- http://www.reality.demon.co.uk/tyco.htm

- http://www.bitpress.com/tyco/fren.html
Click to expand...

Hey cool! That was my first camera (I was like 10).
 
A 12 bit linear system can record 12 stops at most, so take that as the upper limit. (I believe that a non-linear response or more than 12 bits would mean a complete system redesign, which I didn't hear being suggested. I suspect they just found one or more parts with improved specs to plug into the existing design.) If you look at the curve that the 11.3 stop claim was based on, you will observe in the bottom left region, the lowest 1 or 2 stops of exposure have a much different slope (flatter) than the rest of the plot. This suggests it is an area of significantly increased noise. If the improved circuit has lower noise, this will give you a much more usable image in the underexposed areas, without necessarily increasing the measured dynamic range number at all. In the end, you care about what the picture looks like and the DNR number alone doesn't tell us that.
 
Ok maybe I'm being thick headed but my understanding was that the 12bits was just the ceiling at which you see no more improvement from 12 stops. In other words 12stops @ 14 bits is just wasting two bits to noise. That still doesn't mean you can only record a maximum of 12 stops to 12 bits correct?
 
rgdfilmsRED said:
Keep in mind, he said minor not major. A major delay would be 6-18 months. Minor to me, smells of 1-3 months max. These are good peeps. :construction: What a sweet business to be in right now!
Click to expand...

I really hope we are talking about weeks here, not months...
 
I'm hoping two weeks max !
-A
 
chromatic adaptation.....
For those who want to know (and the fresHDV guys can attest to have been in a conversation with Graeme about this)....

Changing your white point affects your perception of color. You can see this in CRT displays. Moving the display's white point from D65 to 9300K makes reds appear less saturated. To compensate for this, a lot of consumer CRTs will oversaturate the reds and mess with the hue.

When you white balance an image, you kind of have the flip side to this. You white balance from whatever the scene is (for outdoors scenes, this changes throughout the day and depends on cloud cover) to your target white point. Target white point for video is D65, for DCI is P3 (I think; see etconsult.com), and for film is 5400K.
*White point = the color of white. Sort of like the color temperature of a light.

Ok, so when you change the white point you can numerically change all your values so that they look the same. There are different numerical schemes for this, such as the Bradford transformation. Bruce Lindbloom's site goes into some of the color science of it:
http://brucelindbloom.com/Eqn_ChromAdapt.html
(and see the links to other pages too)

2- One of the problems with color science is that we don't understand everything... i.e. a lot of the color perception models are imperfect. I've heard a lot of good things about Fairchild's book Color Appearance Models 2nd Ed and it's probably a good reference for color science stuff.

I think that's the Coles notes version. You will be tested on this. ;)
 
"If we deliver on time, but the product has defects, we have not delivered on time."
- Philip Crosby Let's Talk Quality, 1989

Please take the necessary time to make this a camera for the history books. I've got my reservation locked. I'm not going anywhere. Appreciate all the hard work.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top