Lose the "Visual Verbosity" please

[Gunleik Groven]

we wouldn't be having this discussion unless I brought it up so be grateful anderson and don't tell me how to communicate.

Harry.

Concider this a friendly advice.

It is one thing we try to avoid here, and that is personal attacks, and when they are mixed with aggressive insults and not being very productive, that is usually a way to not stay here too long.

Your points can be valid. Asking anyone to jump in a lake or suggesting that they have a low IQ for not agreeing with you, is not very productive in my experience of this place.

Keep it polite.

 

[harry stuckey]

again you are assuming that Mr. Jannard has personally formulated these marketing messages on these rosettes and rail components. On what evidence are you basing this assertion on. Have you ever met the man and discussed this issue? or have you read somewhere that he personally has placed these marketing messages on these rail components. you are basing your dumb assertions on ZERO information. (or comments form others who also have no idea exactly if Mr. Jannard has actually authorized and likes these marketing messages. What I am saying is that I am not certain at all that he has even tendered this issue because in our empirical mind, an issue is not an issue until someone make it so. which is what I have instigated here. no thanks to fanboys like yourself who are too busy cheerleading to really have much to offer.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

And still not a single person has addressed the point that since no screws are ever labeled, it serves no purpose on the set to have the cage screw holes labeled. no purpose whatsoever if you don't know the dimensions of the screw you are holding in your hand. But no one will address this point, just personal attacks against the person raising what are completely valid and logical points. They just ignore the points and start making personal attacks or comments. nice.

Well, Harry, your name calling isn't helping your case any. and I still have quite a ways to go in this thread so I hope it gets a little better. I'm not one of the designers at RED, not an employee of RED anyway, but I can say this. They don't label every hole on every accessory. And there are plenty of times for some of us who tend to shoot in certain conditions where these markings can be a godsend.

I will agree on some of the branding and silk screen graphics that it's a bit much at times. Personally, I don't see why we have to have giant "RED" plastered in multiple places by the time we get the entire camera put together. I don't under stand the "JET BLAST" and "TURBO THRUST" and such relating to fans or air exhaust. Actually the former of those serves a purpose on the EPIC as it's a pretty in-your-face reminder to not obstruct that opening. It's just an overtly silly way to to point that out, IMO.

 

[harry stuckey]

Harry.

Concider this a friendly advice.

It is one thing we try to avoid here, and that is personal attacks, and when they are mixed with aggressive insults and not being very productive, that is usually a way to not stay here too long.

Your points can be valid. Asking anyone to jump in a lake or suggesting that they have a low IQ for not agreeing with you, is not very productive in my experience of this place.

Keep it polite.

Well then I didn't notice you saying the same thing to those who called me DRUNK and told me to go home which CAUSED my response. So i suppose it is ok for people to make comments like that (whien I don't even touch alcohol) yet when I call them the assholes that they are i get all the retribution. Cause and effect my friend, cause and effect.

 

[harry stuckey]

Well, Harry, your name calling isn't helping your case any. and I still have quite a ways to go in this thread so I hope it gets a little better. I'm not one of the designers at RED, not an employee of RED anyway, but I can say this. They don't label every hole on every accessory. And there are plenty of times for some of us who tend to shoot in certain conditions where these markings can be a godsend.

I will agree on some of the branding and silk screen graphics that it's a bit much at times. Personally, I don't see why we have to have giant "RED" plastered in multiple places by the time we get the entire camera put together. I don't under stand the "JET BLAST" and "TURBO THRUST" and such relating to fans or air exhaust. Actually the former of those serves a purpose on the EPIC as it's a pretty in-your-face reminder to not obstruct that opening. It's just an overtly silly way to to point that out, IMO.

my name calling was a reaction not a cause. it was a result of being assaulted by a mentality which i am repulsed by and been fighting all of my life. I dislike these types of forums for this very reason because there is always present a group who lives on them and or finds affinity in groupthink which I am very much opposed to. and may times these forums get co-opted and dominated by these types and becomes more a cheerleading squad (and personal attack chorus) than an actual forum to produce actionable results.

As for the "turbo thrust dual fan" nastiness it serves no function whatsoever because it gets half covered up by a grate or cage anyways and leaves only partially readable words which again have no functionality. things with no functionality do not belong on a camera system of this compact size - only things and words that maximize functionality and someone will be hard pressed to argue that words that are covered up have functionality.

 

[harry stuckey]

plus paint on heatsinks is an engineering no no. (although I have a feeling this must be some very light dye because I doubt an engineer in red camera company would ever put paint onto a heatsink, at least not an engineer committed to sound engineering practices. ) nevertheless, unless that paint, dye or whatever surfacing they are using is simply anodization, it will not be as optimal at heat dissipation as having no paint or dye at all (which, from an engineering standpoint, is the optimal choice)

 

[Clint Lealos]

Harry, I love the way your brain works. Mine works much in the same way.

It is likely you are correct about the majority of Red owners wanting a more subtle aesthetic on their accessories. You are also right about the value of honest feedback to marketing folks. I'd say you are right about there being a overly loyal fan base attached with Red that sometimes doesn't respond well to any criticism. You are right about the 1/4 20 bolts. You make good points about people's use of fallacious arguments. You are right about a lot as far as I can tell. You have sound reasoning and logic.

The part I believe you are missing is effective persuasive arguments. Aesthetics is purely opinion, it is wise to not speak with an imperative tone when giving your honest thoughts about others opinions. Especially, when attempting to persuade them into your line of reasoning. If you truly would like to see a your suggestions implemented you should consider tone as much as you consider validity. Someone (an actual person or persons) at Red actually thought those "unnecessarily ugly", "useless", "cluttered", "unprofessional", "gamer" graphics are the correct decisions for their company. That is your audience and you started your argument by insulting their choices. Also, an undetermined amount of owners on this forum disagree with you. They too are deaf to your message now. Humans are notorious for defensive behavior when they feel attacked physically or otherwise. Once our defenses are up, there is little chance of convincing us we are wrong.

Ironically, I'd describe your style of communication as very similar to Red's accessory marketing… bold, unforgiving, and totally ineffective.

Peace.

 

[harry stuckey]

Harry, I love the way your brain works. Mine works much in the same way.

It is likely you are correct about the majority of Red owners wanting a more subtle aesthetic on their accessories. You are also right about the value of honest feedback to marketing folks. I'd say you are right about there being a overly loyal fan base attached with Red that sometimes doesn't respond well to any criticism. You are right about the 1/4 20 bolts. You make good points about people's use of fallacious arguments. You are right about a lot as far as I can tell. You have sound reasoning and logic.

The part I believe you are missing is effective persuasive arguments. Aesthetics is purely opinion, it is wise to not speak with an imperative tone when giving your honest thoughts about others opinions. Especially, when attempting to persuade them into your line of reasoning. If you truly would like to see a your suggestions implemented you should consider tone as much as you consider validity. Someone (an actual person or persons) at Red actually thought those "unnecessarily ugly", "useless", "cluttered", "unprofessional", "gamer" graphics are the correct decisions for their company. That is your audience and you started your argument by insulting their choices. Also, an undetermined amount of owners on this forum disagree with you. They too are deaf to your message now. Humans are notorious for defensive behavior when they feel attacked physically or otherwise. Once our defenses are up, there is little chance of convincing us we are wrong.

Ironically, I'd describe your style of communication as very similar to Red's accessory marketing… bold, unforgiving, and totally ineffective.

Peace.

Agreed on many points. This criticism has followed me my entire life. however my experience is that in the end, the real deal people, the thinkers, have no problem and actually rather appreciate my shock and awe approach and in the end my experience has shown me that I end up being the only one who can be trusted to be frank and honest. The typical arc is as follows: I make a statement, opinion or analysis. (which invariably goes against pretty much every thing that is currently the consensus thinking. Then the consensus thinkers (group thinkers, fanboys whatever you want to call these thoroughly useless types) enter a state of disequilibration (i prefer the term disequibrium but the proper psychological term is disequalibration) At which point they attempt to rebalance their unbalanced state by rejecting my position and it ALWAYS takes personal tone. (I never go personal unless someone does so first) at which point I publicly write them off as the predictable borish dullards that they are. At which point they simply have no choice but to retain their position. However, what also occurs is that the thing gets noticed. (which is the point)

This idea that red executives (not in the marketing department) will be offended is just not backed up by a logical flow. In fact quite the contrary, it gives those within the red organization more reasons to speak out against what I am sure many there also feel is a marketing or graphics department which has gone a little overboard. And the heat sink is pretty much proof positive that some incorrect decisions are being made by whoever made the incorrect decision to place paint onto a heatsink. That paint needs to come off that heat sink and it matters little if I say it nicely or have the ghost of Adolph Hitler come back and tell you this. A truth is a truth no matter how it is expressed. It is wrong from an engineering standpoint and should be changed and that is that. There is no question about this, this is a thermodynamic fact of life and the laws of thermodynamics don't take a lunch break or a day off just because some marketing department thinks so - or because some fanboy like it. THese are immutable laws at least in this universe (maybe in another universe where thermodynamics operates differently paint would be just fin on a heat sink, but in this universe paint of an heat sink is an engineering no no. I'm really not that interested in hearing any fanboys opinions on this matter, it's a close matter and a law of this universe, much like gravity is, there is no argument (at least in this universe)

But when a predictable chorus of fanboys clogs up this engineering discussion with personal attacks against the messenger because it didn't jive with their precious sensibilities, i must admit I care very little about the sensibilities of such predictable types. I came here with sound engineering principles, and the fanboy and groupthink mentality always gets in the way and has to clutter it up with their fanboy or groupthink nonsense.

(I'll be back in a while I have to have dinner)

 

[Logan Smith]

Oh brother, I should just ignore this thread but this is too good.

This criticism has followed me my entire life. however my experience is that in the end, the real deal people, the thinkers, have no problem and actually rather appreciate my rather shock and awe approach

"Shock and awe approach", as in, accusing everyone who disagrees with you as being retards/lemmings/fanboys?

and in the end my experience has shown me that I end up being the only one who can be trusted to be frank and honest.

The level of self-aggrandizement and pretentiousness on display here is staggering.

The typical arc is as follows, I make a statement, opinion or analysis. It pretty much goes against every thing that is currently the consensus thinking.

Fun fact: I actually agreed with him, at least about the marketing/branding aspect, a lot of people did.

Then the consensus thinkers (group thinkers, fanboys whatever you want to call these thoroughly useless types) enter a state of disequilibration (i prefer the term disequibrium but the proper psychological term is disequalibration)

Thanks for clearing that up for us, professor. It's great to know that you prefer disequilibrium over disequalibration, very relevant. None of the big words you use in general ever feel out of place or forced like they're desperate attempts to sound intelligent.

At which point they attempt to rebalance their unbalanced state by rejecting my position and it ALWAYS takes personal tone. (I never go personal unless someone does so first)

A pretentious way of saying "THEY STARTED IT".

at which point I publicly write them off as the predictable borish dullards that they are.

Man, your intellect is impressive. I mean, you have the perfect formula for winning debates. If someone disagrees with you just call them out as retards. Genius!

Also, pretty funny how you call people "retard" or "douchebag" when in the grip of your spittle-fueled nerd tantrums but in the post-game recap they're "predictable borish dullards". Much more classy.

However, what also occurs is the thing gets noticed (which is the point).

Ah, of course, brilliant. All those inflammatory comments and self-promoting rants and references to your 9/11 truth blog are just selfless attempts to garner attention for this clearly very serious problem with Red's marketing strategy and definitely not the inane ramblings of a delusional, self-congratulatory, pretentious nutjob.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

my name calling was a reaction not a cause. it was a result of being assaulted by a mentality which i am repulsed by and been fighting all of my life. I dislike these types of forums for this very reason because there is always present a group who lives on them and or finds affinity in groupthink which I am very much opposed to. and may times these forums get co-opted and dominated by these types and becomes more a cheerleading squad (and personal attack chorus) than an actual forum to produce actionable results.

Just remember the old saying… Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Most name calling is reactionary, as that's the way it tends to come about. On forums or in other venues. A reaction is not an excuse or justification. Or in other words, I don't give a rat's ass why it happened, just that it did.

As for the "turbo thrust dual fan" nastiness it serves no function whatsoever because it gets half covered up by a grate or cage anyways and leaves only partially readable words which again have no functionality. things with no functionality do not belong on a camera system of this compact size - only things and words that maximize functionality and someone will be hard pressed to argue that words that are covered up have functionality.

In the sense of pure functionality, I agree with you about the markings on the new fans. On the other hand, if we consider RED's heritage, coming from Oakley and Jim's own design aesthetic, coming from years within the realm of bits and pieces for motorcycles, funny cars, logo wear, flashy sunglasses and other apparel… Not only does this design sense for the cameras fit the established mold for Oakley and Jim Jannard, it fits the aesthetic for those other industries.

As others have pointed out, the brash marketing and outward image of RED probably has played a huge role in their success.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I think I have to agree with much of Logan Smith's above post. Harry, there is absolutely nothing in your technique of approach or discussion here that I would classify as "shock and awe." I've read through this thread twice and all I see is outward criticism and ridicule toward those who don't share your opinion. Even some of that directed toward others who do agree with some of your key points or complaints.

Your opening question to this thread was how to remove the markings you don't like. The first two people to offer legitimate solutions to that question were the first two people you attacked with your reactionary name calling. That's not shock and awe, that's just pure disrespect.

 

[harry stuckey]

OK i've taken the advice of the group thinkers and will try a different approach. here goes:

Gee whizz I really love your product, it just makes me all wet. So much so that I laid a wreath of 15mm rods to commemorate the overall awesomeness of the Red Camera and all of the wonderful people here on this forum, you're all so awesome!

I was wondering though, theres a little thing called thermodynamics, originally conceptualized by this guy named Clausius and refined by this guy named Hemholtz, (there were actually many precursors dating back to the 17th century who understood these principles but these two guys get lots of the credit ) ANYWAYS, within this overarching theory can be found many formulations of the idea of heat transfer, most of it refers to the conservation of energy and the transfer of energy from thermal to mechanical states but within this theory is contained the general principles also of heat dissipation in a closed system. (you can consider the earth or a film set if you will to comprise a closed system of sorts)


Well golly, I hate to be negative here, because as we all know one must never be negative or so states the nauseating principles of neo-liberal cliches which have replaced genuine liberalism with a series of hollow cliches which are ruining the minds of millions of unsuspecting idiots who buy into this cliche based thinking because they are mistaken that it will make them appear to be progressive when in fact they are just vacuous retards who have no clue what it means to be a librally minded thinker and mistake neo liberal cliches about confrontationalism and non judgementalism as a viable life force when in fact it is just a hollow cliche designed to neuter the siimple minds of the poor bastards who recite these cliches mistaking them for a belief system. probably in most cases hoping it may finally get them laid.... oh shit wait a second, I am veering on the path of positivity here.

OK let me restart: Gosh when I noticed all the paint on the heatsink it got me think. Hmmmm, I wonder if this paint would have a quantum effect on heat dissipation? And I thought about it for a while, and I was terrorified. And do you know why I was terrified? Because I would have to then express my concerns, and I know how that usually goes. (especially when dealing with a group where it is certain there will be trolls whose life is dedicated to genuflecting rather than improving (hence the two fanboys who were proud to announce their utter obsequiousness by proudly proclaiming "Never Change and the next copies this sentiment and reposts this dumb nonsense DONT CHANGE!!!! they wrote. (Two people on this thread actually wrote DONT CHANGE ha ha ha) oh no, there I go veering of the positivity track again.

Well hell I guess I don't have much patience for this stupid argument, so I'll just say it again - the paint needs to come off that heat sink, this is not issue, this is a cold hard fact of thermodynamic reality and there is not a thing that any fanboy can sputter that changes these fundamental laws of the universe.

So my position is final on this one, I would never install a heat sink with paint on it, it doesn't belong there and is a clear impingement of these fundamental laws and I frankly have little interest in the opinions of those who think otherwise. I would remove the paint first, of course it would be better if the marketing department didn't put the paint on there in the first place, but the paint must come off that heat sink, and there is no discussion really. It's called a fact. but there are too many dumb fanboys who are cluttering up this sensible engineering reality with their useless adoration and garlands of appreciation so the choice is yours, either go with the laws of thermodynamics which I am representing with my position or go with the fanboys and bad decisions which violate the fundamental measurable laws of the universe. Choice is yours.

I will choose the mineral spirits or paint remover and hope and pray it doesn't affect the anodization. But I would never install a painted heat sink, no way no how. And even though you may retort that this is NOT a heat sink but merely a fan holder, my response is that the entire system is a heat sink and that is very much what it must be viewed as.

And this is easy to prove, simply set up a test to measure the caloric dissipation of heat from that sink , and perform this test with two heat sinks - one with paint on it and one without. And if your instrument is properly calibrated and sensitive enough guess what you will observe? You will observe that the heat sink without the paint dissipates heat more efficiently than a heat sink with the paint.

Im sorry about all this but I did not create the laws of thermodynamics or gravity but im unfortunately subject to them along with all my adoring fans and detracting fanboys, we're all in this heat sink together. There that's positive.

Now that thats over with, lets "lose the visual verbosity"

 

[Logan Smith]

I was wondering though, theres a little thing called thermodynamics, originally conceptualized by this guy named Clausius and refined by this guy named Hemholtz, (there were actually many precursors dating back to the 17th century who understood these principles but these two guys get lots of the credit ) ANYWAYS, within this overarching theory can be found many formulations of the idea of heat transfer, most of it refers to the conservation of energy and the transfer of energy from thermal to mechanical states but within this theory is contained the general principles also of heat dissipation in a closed system. (you can consider the earth or a film set if you will to comprise a closed system of sorts)

Mmmm, yes, very relevant. Definitely not another desperate attempt to sound smart.

Well golly, I hate to be negative here, because as we all know one must never be negative or so states the nauseating principles of neo-liberal cliches which have replaced genuine liberalism with a series of hollow cliches which are ruining the minds of millions of unsuspecting idiots who buy into this cliche based thinking because they are mistaken that it will make them appear to be progressive when in fact they are just vacuous retards who have no clue what it means to be a librally minded thinker and mistake neo liberal cliches about confrontationalism and non judgementalism as a viable life force when in fact it is just a hollow cliche designed to neuter the siimple minds of the poor bastards who recite these cliches mistaking them for a belief system. probably in most cases hoping it may finally get them laid.... oh shit wait a second, I am veering on the path of positivity here.

I changed my mind, keep this thread open, mods. Everybody get on board the crazy train! Take it away, Harry! I found the perfect soundtrack to accompany his insane rambling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9dde_mh9Ww

 

[harry stuckey]

And regarding my choice of expletives I actually prefer terms like "fucking asshole" "sputtering idiot" but I'm also quite fond of "Obsequious lickspittle" which I think is appropriate. (for logan at least)

 

[harry stuckey]

Mmmm, yes, very relevant. Definitely not another desperate attempt to sound smart.



I changed my mind, keep this thread open, mods. Everybody get on board the crazy train! Take it away, Harry! I found the perfect soundtrack to accompany his insane rambling:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9dde_mh9Ww

Dude I lecture on Philosophy and Quantum Mechanics at Berkeley. (the premiere university for both philosophy and Quantum Mechanics in the United States) So if you're trying to say that I am "desperate to sound intelligent" well dipshit, Berkeley University thinks so, what the fuck qualifications do you have to say otherwise? ,you've not demonstrated a very CONvincing argument with your cut and pastes of my comments. And if you would like to step into a Mensa office I'll give you a twenty point spread and still mop the floor with your dumbass.

 

[Wes Howell]

Sort of funny that one guy would get so pissed off about a few labels (and spend hours writing all of this crap).

Personally, I don't give a shit about the labels. I have plenty more important things to worry about.

Kinda made me feel sorry for Jarred. I bet he gets all kinds of crazy shit like this in his inbox.

 

[Zeb B]

Wow . . . RU has become very tolerant of dull tools. Back in the day we were banned for using the term "idiot" when addressing an asshole

 

[harry stuckey]

oh and my five thousand dollar bet still stands to anyone who wishes to back up their twaddle against a survey. Put the money where the mouth is. (I won't hold my breath logan waiting for you to take the bet because we all know more people dislike the marketing clutter than like it so once again you can cut and paste all day long trying to con someone into the ridiculous position that I am some kind of low IQ type like yourself, but I doubt you'll get many takers on that one either, because I am already receiving private messages from users telling me they appreciate my position and attitude here. And please don't ask me to out these privates to prove to your dumb ass or I'll make that a bet too that you will also lose. show me the money and shut me up otherwise clam up dude.

 

[harry stuckey]

Sort of funny that one guy would get so pissed off about a few labels (and spend hours writing all of this crap).

Personally, I don't give a shit about the labels. I have plenty more important things to worry about.

Kinda made me feel sorry for Jarred. I bet he gets all kinds of crazy shit like this in his inbox.

wes i didn't get pissed off by the labels, just the idiots and group thinkers.

 

[D Anderson]

Wow . . . RU has become very tolerant of dull tools. Back in the day we were banned for using the term "idiot" when addressing an asshole

Many have been banned for a LOT less.