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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Limbo

From Brent

Brent@RED said:
Within each upgrade group (going to Woven, going to Forged, going to Mg), we will notify the EPIC DRAGON CF guys first. Then then EPIC-M, then EPIC-X, then SCARLET...

Yes, we are doing new cameras at same time. Allocations based on time/date stamp and materials availability...
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I think the main problem is RED doesn't appear to have a formal alpha and beta group. To me, guys like Phil are in closed beta, and all the 8k camera's probably till February is really a closed beta program. Also it makes no sense to me sending a alpha or beta camera to some one that rents and thus pays more for basically cosmetic changes. Currently this "Beanie Baby"(false scarcity queue concept) makes money for first come renters ... but that is just no way to test cameras. Also feels from my perspective that people are just paying to cut in line around me, which just complicates the queuing process like people taking off ramps then looping back on the on ramps in California freeways. Also I've had to wait a long time for my cameras through the various processes, yet both dragons are under a year old and results of upgrades... just does not make sense to me to have some one get in line first because my camera need a checkout yet are still under warrenty.
 
I don't know if this helps but I had the same feelings and I was waiting for my Forged. I know I know your all thinking he's just rubbing it in but I have to tell you that it did seem like it was taking longer than it should but its just that we are, as RED owners a lot of cameras and as Phil mentioned they need to go through the process of check in check out and QC on each camera along with trying to keep up with everything else.
I can say with out a doubt that the Weapon is one of the most amazing camera ever.. I thought my Dragon was great but this definitely is a step up.
Its like your a kid again and waiting for Christmas. Every day might as well be a month..
Be patient, its worth it...
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Everyone has their own unique situation in terms of when having a camera out of service is a serious issue, and when it's a minor inconvenience.

Perhaps the sharing economy is showing us a solution. Let's say that party A gets the notice from RED to send in their Epic Dragon and a couple days later one of their key clients wants to do several days of pickups/b-roll for an already budgeted project. Renting an Epic for those days at market rates would seriously cut into the already low margins on the deal, but you need to take care of biz. What if you could trade out rental days with another local Epic Dragon owner who could then reach out to you while their camera was in Irvine getting upgraded?

I'm suggesting that RedUser might be a good place to organize a system of local/regional "day for day" bartering during "upgrade season". Mods?

Cheers - #19
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I do like the idea of the sharing economy for upgrades! Anyone in seattle want some days with a Forged Weapon in trade for days on their Epic? I have 5 days in the next two weeks and would reeeeeeally like to not pay those days out of pocket towards rentals.
 
Russ Fill said:
I don't know if this helps but I had the same feelings and I was waiting for my Forged. I know I know your all thinking he's just rubbing it in but I have to tell you that it did seem like it was taking longer than it should but its just that we are, as RED owners a lot of cameras and as Phil mentioned they need to go through the process of check in check out and QC on each camera along with trying to keep up with everything else.
I can say with out a doubt that the Weapon is one of the most amazing camera ever.. I thought my Dragon was great but this definitely is a step up.
Its like your a kid again and waiting for Christmas. Every day might as well be a month..
Be patient, its worth it...
Click to expand...
Well I think of it a bit differently. I think there's people like you and Phill, that are active redusers, know how to test camera's and give meaningful feedback(it's not a large list of people that i'd put in that group). If there was a closed beta group of guys like you, let's say 200 max, I'd get the camera's out to them first and have them do a one over of the first production camera's without any of the "M"/"CF"/"Forged" nonsense. The point being in the closed beta it's not about what RED can do for the beta group, but getting critical feedback from closed beta before final production release. I'd have a range of people like you, Probst, R. Scott, Red Moderators - all under NDA so you could get meaningful internal conversations with RED but would be constrained to give solid feedback to RED along with the beta group being ok with multi week and/or month camera hand ins. Doing something like this would be way better for RED and give the general RED user population manageable expectations.
 
Patrick, I love that idea, I only wish I had a Beta tester position and a NDA that would make my day to be able to be the first and beta test RED cameras.. Yahoo
But I can't afford to beta test while working and my camera was out of the box and in the field with in 24 hours. A few quick test and checks and setting up the camera and working on a project the next day. I stressed just as much as the next guy about how I was going to get my camera in to RED and back to me with out having to rent or miss a day of production, just as much as the next Red owner.

And I love to put a camera through its paces to see what it can do as much as the next guy also. Im the kind of guy that will read a manual cover to cover like a novel and love the ending and go and read it again and again. and try to find the weakness if there is one to avoid it, and find the strengths also to capitalize on them. But I usually don't have to much down time like now where I can send reports in to RED about this and that. Frankly I don't know how Phil does it so well, and I know he is busy with projects also.
There might be a few folks that RED uses. And what company would not want to make some of the biggest features going on have at least a little love to keep proving that the camera does what it calms it should do on the biggest level.
I can't imagine RED at this point in the game doesn't do a tone of in-house beta testing long before the cameras go out the door in to general use. I think we all learned something from the R1 days. It would be to costly to have a mistake or firmware lock up at the level were talking about on sets of major films and projects. Im not saying that maybe a couple or few cameras and a tech from RED go to a special project to make sure things are going well but I dont think that Red has some cherry picking process of who gets cameras first or second... Unless your Jarred or Jim...
We all love Phil's updates and info and even I noticed that he seemed to wait a long time before he announced his camera arrived and that it would take him a few days to put together the info we all had been waiting for.
I honestly just put my order in as everyone else had the opportunity to do, and waited over the months just like everyone else. Im not saying that, I may have gotten up early to make sure I was early in the que on the day, just like wanting over night at concert hall to get the best concert tickets when the window opens.
But it sounds like a lot of us and even more than expected on the Forged wanted to be early in line with the Weapon.
 
Find it a bit strange to complain, about the time for the upgrades, the uncertainty of when it will happen, how long time it takes etc. I mean it´s nothing we are forced to do. Wait for it and use what you have at hand and then order when the stuff is in stock ready to ship is a very valid approach. Also even if you paid your deposit etc. you can decide exactly when to do the upgrade... as long as you do not set the date too early. Like if you paid at nab and decide to send in your camera next summer I´m pretty sure the upgrade will be done without any long delivery waits etc. So the problem is not really that red does not keep us informed or that its taking long o any such thing. The only problem I see is that everyone wants their new camera yesterday. :)
 
Russ Fill said:
We all love Phil's updates and info and even I noticed that he seemed to wait a long time before he announced his camera arrived and that it would take him a few days to put together the info we all had been waiting for.
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Heh. 3 shoots, 2 design gigs, and THEN several days of camera tests I funded myself. 5 producers with very real deadlines got in the way, but I came through I hope.

Things are a bit slower now that December has arrived thankfully. Was losing my mind for a minute there.
 
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Phil Holland said:
I don't have all the answers, but there is order to the chaos.

The difficult thing, though it's the real thing that is going on, is that there is a queue and every camera upgrade needs to be received, inspected, and cleared before the new body is put in progress. Weapons must be manufactured, thoroughly QC'd, and lightly burned in.





Not a single 8K camera has been delivered. Yet. Jarred has mentioned a very small number of the first pre-orders will upgrade at the end of this month however. So I'd expect to see a handful or two in the wild before the clock ticks 2016.

Forged Weapons are shipping. There has been more than I expected ordered. Those had/have priority.

Woven Weapons are also shipping, I imagine there's more of those than the Forged that have been ordered.

Magnesium Weapon has not shipped yet.

Raven is part of the DSCM2 family and I imagine to handle the shear magnitude of those pre-orders an entirely separate line will be utilized.

Jon's post likely tells more of the story CF side.




I've been tracking the upgrade process for several Weapon owners out there. Thus far it appears to take about 10-14 business days to complete an upgrade. Barring that there could be delays of any sort like holidays, magnitude of cameras being sent in, parts shipment and allocation, etc.... But from what I've seen most Forged folks got their's done in 2 weeks or a hair over. If you live on a different side of the planet, take into account shipping. What I'm describing is after a camera has been received.
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Good to know I'm not the only one on REDUSER with mild lexDysia. '-)

Other than the above nonsensical statement I probably have no valid reason to post in this thread. Reason is, I'm among the last to take advantage of the 1/2 price 8k sensor offer. The only thing that may save me from being last to get my Weapon CF is that I bought new instead of going upgrade. I think it may be possible to assemble a camera from scratch much quicker than to go through the upgrade protocol. Of course that means I left some accessory inclusion on the table but for me I determined it was advantageous to sell my two Dragons and buy the Weapon. With the announcement of the RAVEN, I can now become a two camera operation again so in hindsight, I made the right choice.

But it also means I have been suffering from camera-separation syndrome for quite some time now, so I understand a little of what some are experiencing. Only a little because unlike many who rely on their cameras to put green leafy vegetables and oily fish (at least once a week) on the table, my cameras rely on me for their sustenance. That is, I don't rely on my cameras for cash, but instead for the quality of imaging.

My guess is that any beta-testing is done by people who've never posted on REDuser but are well known in the wider movie-making industry. IMO, that's as it should be.

I trust RED to ship a bullet-proof camera. As for assembling those cameras for shipment?... well, I think at this stage they have a pretty clear idea of the strengths and weaknesses of the process, so should be pretty proficient by now.

As for showing favoritism... I've run a business in the past and I always treated all customers with the same attention... but my employees had favorite customers and probably (definitely) treated some customers a little better than others.

So if someone jumps the line as some here have suggested, I don't get upset about it but just accept it as an employee being human... as long as it doesn't run rampant.
 
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I think we should quit our collective bitching. Work with what you have, not with what you don't have. Yes I constantly check my email, wondering if today could be the day. But we are too accustomed to thinking that if a company takes a deposit, that they need to meet all your expectations - and be totally transparent about all the proprietary inner workings ad nauseaum. Totally unreasonable. On top of that. Shit happens, and as filmmakers you should know this. Expectations should be relative to reality; you are getting a trade in value for a camera that is not even obsolete toward a camera that is cutting edge, a credit toward accessories, and some general details on the timeline that exists...be satisfied.
 
I think that the point of this thread has wandered away slightly. I don't think the original rant was an issue over how long it's taking to do upgrades, the real issue is the complete lack of information.

I too am finding this very frustrating. I ordered a brand new carbon weapon and the 8K upgrade at the same time. I'm certain that the information given at the time stated that new orders were treated with the same priority as carbon upgrades and sent out with their date stamp.

I have been watching the forums to trying and understand where we are with in process but have had absolutely no clue what so ever from RED. I love my two epic dragons and can't wait to get my hands on the weapon either but I do feel that red don't give loyal customers the respect they deserve when spending £55k on a brand new camera. All we want are a few updates to let us know where we are in the queue and how it's progressing. It could be even be quite vague but enough to know where we stand.

The reason this is such an issue is because of finances. We have been sitting on the remainder of our money we need to give RED as we have no idea when we will get the call. £35k is no small amount of money to just have sat dead in the bank plus the deposit money that we paid already.

It's now our financial end of year and unless I spend that money I'm going to get taxed on it. If I spend it I need to be sure I have enough coming in for when RED call me up but of course I have absolutely no idea when this will be.

So I made a decision to spend the money on an Alexa Mini as I desperately need a third camera in my hands. One phone call and a bank transfer and it arrives the following day. My clients and I are loving it and it starts working immediately for me.

I'm not starting an Alexa vs RED thread here, they're both awesome and I love my REDs, they've been very good to me. I'd just like an email or call saying "if we stay on track with current production we hope to have your camera ready by the end of December" or something along those lines. I could not treat my clients like this and although I'm not a huge studio buying 10 cameras from RED, I'd still consider myself a good customer who will have spent well over £100k with RED.

My date stamp with RED is 27th of April. I know this is a late order but I'd imagine orders slowed after the first couple of days.
 
@phil thomas

Have the same tax problem. I also dont know what to do with the saved 40K. If it would be only possible to pay the camera before the end of the year.
It also takes some time to save the same amount of money again when I spend it right now for smth else.

Maybe someone from Red can give some alternative.
Please let me give you money.
 
True, you can pay as much as you want on deposits for anything - doesn't mean you can deduct the money in the current year.
Depreciation has it's own set of rules - even when cash is used as the accounting method.

Capital equipment, such as Section 179 expensed gear is not deductible until it is placed "in service".
That phrasing appears throughout Form 4562 and the instructions.

In other words, if you are not taking receipt of the camera until March of 2016, it does not qualify as a 2015 deduction as capital equipment - even if you paid in full this month.
 
ok---will waste the money on smth different than weapon CF as it seems.

Damn.
 
I have no doubt that RED is building Weapons and doing upgrades as fast as they possibly can without skimping on QC. That said, if the last few posts don't emphasize just how critical it is to get cameras out the door and into "service" ASAP, I don't know what would...

Cheers - #19
 
Last week was #138 today is #189 delivered. Which is not bad at all.
 
6k Carbon Weapon upgrades are happening at a steady pace and we are trying to get through all of them by the end of next month then jump right into the Magnesium Weapons.
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Jarred has already given us an update weeks ago, I don't under the problem.
 
Thanks for the advice guys, but I'm in the UK and we have different tax rules here.

I've contacted RED twice to be absolutely sure and they have confirmed they cannot be except the full payment until my unit is ready. This is mainly due to fluctuations in exchange rate, which I do understand but doesn't help much.

It's also great that Jarred posted about carbon upgrades but I am not upgrading, I'm purchasing a new camera. Can anyone confirm if new camera purchases take the same priority as carbon upgrades? It was after all the most expensive option after forged.

And as a final point, Jarred's comment is still buried within the forum. A polite email once a month to indicate how orders are going is not out of the question when paying £55k. Remember, I'm not cross at how long it's taken, I can see how hard RED are working and I appreciate what a monster the weapon is. I just want some updates on my order every so often. I won't hold them to it but it would help me and others plan our investment paths.

Right now I could have had some very nice master pimes ordered and begun saving for my weapon ;)
 
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