Limbo

[ignition]

I certainly don't want to rant as I seem to have a tendency to do, but I will anyway (sorry REDUsers + RED!!).. I'm apparently on the Weapon CF upgrade path. I say apparently as I put a deposit down nearly 8 months ago. I know it was "only" $5k USD to have the privilege to be in a queue, despite the fact we can afford that I do envy any person or company who considers that insignificant.

I've waited patiently and often trawl these forums to try to get a sense of where RED is at with their upgrade pathways, their priorities, etc... for my own selfish reasons, of course, trying to work out when RED might finally contact me and ask me for the next $29k USD .. seen Raven announcements, 3rd party announcements, read posts from lots of good people who already have their WF Weapons, even saw some hints at 8K cameras going out.

All the while, I'm harvesting information from fellow customers through the forum, because since placing a deposit I haven't been contacted once by RED or a RED rep to give me any idea of when I might expect this magical day to come. The day my number has come up, and they contact me.

It reminds me a little of going to large concerts where you queue at food vans, you stand in line for ages, you order and pay, and then they direct you to stand to the side with a bunch of other hungry kinsmen (and women) who are also apparently in the queue. And you wait patiently with your growling stomach, as minutes seem like hours, totally assured there's some method in the system; and it becomes reaffirmed as those before you get called up, and you know you're one step closer to fulfillment. Panic and hunger subsides in the comfort of knowing there's an order to all of this, and you know exactly your place in it.

The thing about that situation is I wax lyrical with the person that was before me, and before them, and as they get called my hunger dissipates as I have a clear idea I'm pretty close to being served. That's for a $15 bowl of nachos or toasted sandwich; I really shouldn't compare that to an expensive camera. But is it unreasonable of me to expect a company I've spent +$100k with might provide me more certainty than the guy in the van serving me $15 of nachos?

Why should any customer of any company, anywhere, have to trawl support forums to try to work out when they might see a product they've already paid something towards?

I've been with RED since the RED One and I just want to openly say this is the first time in my history with RED cameras and the RED company that I've felt like nothing more than a number in a phantom queue. I actually don't think operating like this - no matter how innovative, ground breaking or challenging your production & fulfillment objectives are - is really acceptable. I don't believe anything RED is doing is so commercially challenging that customers should be commercially dis-empowered.

As much as I wholly love my Dragon, love RED and continue to advocate the company and cameras, I don't think I should be quiet and just accept you can't contact me and tell me when the upgrade I've put a deposit on is going to fall due and make some commitments to your customers.. (who you expect to make continued commitments to you by placing deposits to reserve a place in upgrade queues)

I'll just close by saying I really love RED cameras, yeah I'll stick with this - rain, hail or shine - and I secretly hope this public rant doesn't somehow get me penalized and shoved further back in the queue ... not that I'd have any idea if it did...!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Darren, I don't think any 8K cameras have gone out.

RED seems to be making their way through the FORGED cameras first, and then WOVEN.

I'm sure you'll be up soon.

 

[ignition]

Darren, I don't think any 8K cameras have gone out.

RED seems to be making their way through the FORGED cameras first, and then WOVEN.

I'm sure you'll be up soon.

I know it's all in due course, and I totally accept the situation.. and yeah, I'm confident the queue is being maintained and honored by RED, that's totally not what I was poking a stick at.

Just had to speak my mind for a variety of reasons and mainly some tectonic personal shifts that have challenged me... so right or wrong (and admittedly, I'm often more wrong than right), I just believe in saying what I'm thinking and putting it out there. And I've always been confident in the REDuser community to be pragmatic and fair in reading, responding and sharing.. thanks for not flaming me

 

[Matthew Quinn]

My Buddy is in the same boat. made his deposit on weapon the first night it was available. I know he is wondering whats going on, but we find staying busy, keep the dragon on set, makes the time fly by.. I'm pretty sure by Christmas the MG weapons will start being called into service based on the Raven delivery promise

 

[Brian Merlen]

the longer the roll out, the longer the dragon generation 1 dsmc makes revenue... it aint so bad it takes them time to get through the thousands of units. just means more revenue today on past products...no one i know personally has a weapon yet, so its not like I'm missing rentals to it i think its just slow distribution wise cuz thats the way it works when its ten thousand units plus

 

[Erich Roland]

same stich.
I believe I read a Jarred post a while back that all the CF (dragon to weapon) "upgrades" will be done be xmas, so you should be getting that call soon.

 

[Brian Merlen]

yea I'm kind of surprised how fast they expect it... we might all have a great holiday if they can see it through

 

[Nick Morrison]

I'm pretty sure by Christmas the MG weapons will start being called into service based on the Raven delivery promise

I have to imagine Magnesiums wont go out till FEB/MARCH right? There are still A LOT of Carbon's to go out...

 

[Matthew Quinn]

I have to imagine Magnesiums wont go out till FEB/MARCH right? There are still A LOT of Carbon's to go out...

if that is true then we wouldn't see ravens till what? April may? that would be unfortunate ><

 

[Brian Merlen]

well its separate lines but the issue is do delays impact other queues and if so under what circumstances? supposedly forged is backed up so far swapping lines won't help me at this point.. I'm just happy to monetize what i have until red is good to go and hoping to save up more in the mean time...im back of cf line so I'm guessing I'm near last

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I think production people get a little tweaked at the seeming lack of timeline certainty and clarity because in the film and video production world one would not last ten seconds without solid committed schedule and delivery. In the camera world however -- especially nowadays -- it seems that vagueness is the new normal. But I wonder if the limits that are being pushed are not part of the issue. Camera companies have beaten each other bloody in the past five years or so - and some of us along with them Constant evolution and change - fierce competition. But with maybe the exception of Arri (yes I said it - BUT even with Arri) delivery is becoming challenged. You have Blackmagic can't seem to materialize a camera to save their lives. You have Canon under-delivering and overstating like crazy. Sony is pumping out cameras like sausages, but the image is not 100% on par with Red or Arri, and the 8bit bandathon on A7 stuff is a nightmare truth be told. So no one seems to be immune. There is no exit off the highway with this stuff it seems.

Maybe making something great is harder and a little slower than it was. I am waiting patiently for a WMg - but I am shooting a Dragon happily. And in the knowledge that Red turned a very real corner in image quality in the past year or so that will become increasingly common knowledge and more ubiquitous with Raven. So all we can do is have patience. At least when it shows up you know based on all preliminary findings from Phil et al that it will be for real and with few compromises. Meanwhile..... don't hate on the Red you gave at hand ... it still loves you

 

[Brian Pascale]

Well, you could cancel your order and get your money back and then just order the camera when it is actually shipping. With the upgrade path you get a discount but there is a price to be paid for that (in this case the $5,000 deposit). None of this is easy. Seems to me being a Red customer you (meaning most of us) are always in a state of semi arousal, there is always some new sexy beast coming out that we can't help but want to posses. I hear you on the financial planning part, it does make it hard to have a large payment ready to go when you don't know when go is. Personally, I'm waiting as I don't need anything more than what I already have and I'm sick of being in debt, kind of sucks the joy out of life. Less noise, better diatomic range, form factor, better battery management all sound lovely, but not nearly as lovely as not having a lease payment. Might be singing a different tune when the Scarlet upgrade path is announced ever so slightly before NAB.

 

[Shane Kelly]

same stich.
I believe I read a Jarred post a while back that all the CF (dragon to weapon) "upgrades" will be done be xmas, so you should be getting that call soon.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=It'll+be+over+by+Christmas

 

[Jon Carr]

From what I heard from my rep, as I ask him every week now. They are still going through the carbon and epic m's. If your a X like me you still have a while to go. If your a M, you still have while to go. Upgrades take time and they are between two major American holiday months. I don't expect a email till after feb for my CF weapon and I also ordered as soon as it was announced. I hope sooner but I don't think it will.

 

[Patrick Kendall]

They are still going through the carbon and epic m's. If your a X like me you still have a while to go. If your a M, you still have while to go.

oh, the queue is also based on whether you owned a C or M or X Epic? thought it was just on which Weapon model is being upgraded and the Timestamp of the deposit? hate to see what the the ever changing queue chart at Red HQ looks like, must be crazy.

 

[Joel Voelker]

Also keep in mind that you may be without your camera for a month when you send it in for the upgrade... Very hard to plan for and a very big added expense to the upgrade.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

I don't believe anything RED is doing is so commercially challenging that customers should be commercially dis-empowered.

Well said.

 

[Phil Holland]

I don't have all the answers, but there is order to the chaos.

The difficult thing, though it's the real thing that is going on, is that there is a queue and every camera upgrade needs to be received, inspected, and cleared before the new body is put in progress. Weapons must be manufactured, thoroughly QC'd, and lightly burned in.

hints at 8K cameras going out.

From what I heard from my rep, as I ask him every week now. They are still going through the carbon and epic m's. If your a X like me you still have a while to go. If your a M, you still have while to go. Upgrades take time and they are between two major American holiday months. I don't expect a email till after feb for my CF weapon and I also ordered as soon as it was announced. I hope sooner but I don't think it will.

Not a single 8K camera has been delivered. Yet. Jarred has mentioned a very small number of the first pre-orders will upgrade at the end of this month however. So I'd expect to see a handful or two in the wild before the clock ticks 2016.

Forged Weapons are shipping. There has been more than I expected ordered. Those had/have priority.

Woven Weapons are also shipping, I imagine there's more of those than the Forged that have been ordered.

Magnesium Weapon has not shipped yet.

Raven is part of the DSCM2 family and I imagine to handle the shear magnitude of those pre-orders an entirely separate line will be utilized.

Jon's post likely tells more of the story CF side.

Also keep in mind that you may be without your camera for a month when you send it in for the upgrade... Very hard to plan for and a very big added expense to the upgrade.

I've been tracking the upgrade process for several Weapon owners out there. Thus far it appears to take about 10-14 business days to complete an upgrade. Barring that there could be delays of any sort like holidays, magnitude of cameras being sent in, parts shipment and allocation, etc.... But from what I've seen most Forged folks got their's done in 2 weeks or a hair over. If you live on a different side of the planet, take into account shipping. What I'm describing is after a camera has been received.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Also keep in mind that you may be without your camera for a month when you send it in for the upgrade... Very hard to plan for and a very big added expense to the upgrade.

Everyone has their own unique situation in terms of when having a camera out of service is a serious issue, and when it's a minor inconvenience.

Perhaps the sharing economy is showing us a solution. Let's say that party A gets the notice from RED to send in their Epic Dragon and a couple days later one of their key clients wants to do several days of pickups/b-roll for an already budgeted project. Renting an Epic for those days at market rates would seriously cut into the already low margins on the deal, but you need to take care of biz. What if you could trade out rental days with another local Epic Dragon owner who could then reach out to you while their camera was in Irvine getting upgraded?

I'm suggesting that RedUser might be a good place to organize a system of local/regional "day for day" bartering during "upgrade season". Mods?

Cheers - #19

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

i do share the OP's sense of limbo. For me, there are certain places I like to shoot at specific times of the year due to sun angle variations. With the winter solstice coming fast I've already missed the time window for a couple of scenics I've been wanting to shoot in VV8K ever since I became aware of the format at NAB. Fortunately patience, and another year passing, will give me another shot.

Cheers - #19