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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Life after Red

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FWIW, in life as a general rule, the best way to get the most out of someone is to be a friend. Prodding anyone with a pointed stick only makes them more agitated...
 
I have made some adjustments in my article on the tech side but please read it as it is written. Again, its about progress. People assume I am writing Life after Red as Life after its death. Red isn't going away, its just getting some real competition. It has competition now in the feature and tv market but I am talking about 4K competition. I like Red, but some changes need to be made. Same goes for the other guys. Not really an argument to make against that. I will not adjust the fact about Bayer pattern arrangements having benefits over traditional Bayer patterns.

Competition is coming. Thinking competition will not make Red, Canon, Sony, Panasonic, etc a better companies is just plain stupid. No arguing that. Hate mail keeps coming from non DP's who only use one camera for everything. I work in the real world where we use everything depending on what clients needs are, not what i need to make to pay off a camera system.
 
Michael N. Sutton said:
I work in the real world where we use everything depending on what clients needs are, not what i need to make to pay off a camera system.
Click to expand...

I see the point you are trying to make amongst all the other stuff in your article, but please don't make the assumption that everyone speaking in favor of RED on REDuser needs to pay off a/their camera.
 
Hutson I am not. I have several friends who have paid off their Epics and Scarlets long ago. Out of those friends none of them are ready to fight about Red or be defensive and are very candid about the pros and the cons. The ones I know who haven't paid it off, tend to be very defensive and argumentative. Its just an observation and leads me to a stereotype that has proven itself more often than not.
 
You make some good points, Michael, but the comment here that stuck out to me was this one:

"I do not have 50K invested into any camera system but I do have the opportunity to use most cameras for free due to my job."

For those of that did make that kind of investment for a camera (or two) the conversation takes a different tone, though I'm sure this was not your intent. It's easy to make critical comments when you don't really have a dog in the fight, or if you don't have the camera around you enough to really be informed. One the one hand, feeling you are a free agent in terms of your opinion may seem objective to you, but it can sound like cheap shots to people who have made the financial commitment and nobody makes that kind of commitment casually.
 
Michael N. Sutton said:
Hutson I am not. I have several friends who have paid off their Epics and Scarlets long ago. Out of those friends none of them are ready to fight about Red or be defensive and are very candid about the pros and the cons. The ones I know who haven't paid it off, tend to be very defensive and argumentative. Its just an observation and leads me to a stereotype that has proven itself more often than not.
Click to expand...

Gotchya. I'd say that overall, I am defensive on RED's behalf. Without looking for work since Christmas, I've more than doubled my investment in my EPIC over the last 10 months since the purchase and will have it tripled in a year from now. I guess the stereotype could be redefined.

Sorry for getting off the subject a bit. I like to shoot more than talk anyway.

Cheers, and happy shooting to you and everyone else in the conversation. At the end of the day, we all can agree that that's what it's all about... :)
 
Rob understood. I did have 58K into a Aaton XTR Prod , 30K in glass, 60K into a steadicam Master Elite Film, etc, etc etc and I never had this mentality. Not cheap shots, I get what it is to invest into a bunch of gear only to find out other things are on the horizon. It never stopped me from looking forward to a better Aaton, better glass, a better steadicam or better products from the competition. I have a bunch of gear, but I do not have a personal attachment to it or the companies that make it. Its just gear. Always looking forward to progress as it makes me have more to offer a client.
 
Michael N. Sutton said:
Rob understood. I did have 58K into a Aaton XTR Prod , 30K in glass, 60K into a steadicam Master Elite Film, etc, etc etc and I never had this mentality. Not cheap shots, I get what it is to invest into a bunch of gear only to find out other things are on the horizon.
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this one Michael, you have to stay detatched or your opinions are skewed and mean nothing. I think psychologists call it "cognative disonance" where your thoughts are biased by something you own or are involved with.
No big deal though - as long as everyone's pleasant and friendly all will be well!
Steve
 
well said Steve. Its just a post on a blog. I will keep using the Epic, Alexa, C300, FS700, F3, etc. Certainly not going to get panties in a bunch over any of it and not sure why its affecting so many people enough to get emails with threats and hate. So stupid.
 
Interesting discussion Graeme, Michael et al.

I am new to Red, bought a Scarlet X and have been improving the way I shoot with the camera on every single shoot I do. But one thing that remains constant is my desire for a certain feel and look to the images. The Scarlet X allows me to get what I always liked to see on an image, ever since I started shooting with a Depth of field adapter a long time ago in a galaxy far far away... And yes, embracing a Red workflow has had an impact in the way I deal with file management and outputting in post and yes, it did come with a price tag. But it is a small price tag to pay for what you get and what you can do with your images. You have tremendous latitude with RAW and that's a fact. Another great thing for me about RED is the firmware upgrades and how the Scarlet X is in the mind of the team of engineers just as much as the Epic.

Now, a cup of tea!...
 
I think even though other companies are finally starting to do 4k just validates what Red has been doing. Plus Reds about to release a 6k camera with even more low light sensitivity and dynamic range. Competition is wonderful for shooters, producers, etc that much is true. What I personally don't like about the current red competitor business models is the fact that I could of got a Nex Vg10, to get a Fs100 to get a F3. F35, F65 and a FS700. When I could of just bought a Scarlet and got a Dragon I just wasted a ton instead. Same with any C300 owners, I would be sending hate mail to Canon regularly if I had just gotten a C300 to have the same camera come out again in 4k at an even worse price bracket. If that was Red, a C300 would be a C500 with a FREE firmware update!!!

I think one of the assets of Red, is the modularity, the additional free features added by firmware, the active and often friendly online community (lol), and the fact there is communication. Red is nothing like Apple or these other corporate blood suckers. There pricing and modularity/upgrades/updates adds additional utility to the cameras for years to come. They are still coming out with firmware for the Red One! I like things at Red

So when I do get a 100k package I know it will be a Red, because I don't want to be that guy who got screwed with a C300 instead of a C500. No thanks on that! If I am spending that kind of money I need the peace of mind Red gives me
 
Brian Merlen said:
So when I do get a 100k package I know it will be a Red, because I don't want to be that guy who got screwed with a C300 instead of a C500. No thanks on that! If I am spending that kind of money I need the peace of mind Red gives me
Click to expand...

Agreed, a big factor and one of the biggest Red selling points IMO.
Steve
 
Michael,

I thought you had good intentions and I fear you only error was in the title.... I shoot with many cameras but own an Epic because I can do a 1080p TV pilot and then turn around and shoot Spiderman in 3D and blow the frame up 60%.
Jim has personally said to me that he welcomes competition and saw it coming. Hence the modular design of the Epic/Scarlet. Sometimes we on the forum get defensive and there are many reasons for that.
I gain a great deal of knowledge from this forum and many others. Just Graeme's response to your blog made me more informed.

Owning a camera makes one a bit beholden to that system. Often I feel bad when my Epic sits at home and I DP a commercial on Alexa or shoot a feature on Eastman. But they are all tools.

Keep on writing but ask Graeme for info on Bayer Pattern and be careful of titles like "Life After Red" if only because it causes some to become hyper sensitive.

And Joseph, when are you bringing me to Dubai? Say hi to Smiley for me...

Cheers,

Peter
 
As someone who's been on both sides of a similar type argument here on the forum, I have to say that the more I learn about and understand sensor design and digital cinema camera systems, the more appreciation I have for the Epic. It is well known that I had issue with the Red One but as soon as I got my hands on an Epic, I have never looked back. Now, there is no perfect all-in-one digital motion picture camera system out there... (Yes, there is STILL much room for improvement on the Epic….) but as I go through and weigh the pros and cons of each system viable for the type of work I do (commercials, music videos, features) the Epic covers each of these tasks across the board. It's small, shoots high-speed, has high resolution, good sensitivity and dynamic range and is much more robust than the Red One was, in my opinion.

I do think the F65 is a fine camera as well. The imaging specs/data rate are very appealing on it... but it is also a tank, so it doesn't necessarily tick all of the check boxes for multiple applications... 3D? Epic's small form factor and weight win out... Handheld? Again... I could go on... Even owning an Epic, if I were considering a shooting, let’s say, a dolly-based romantic comedy, I would still test the F65 for the production…

I have shot with Alexas on many occasions, but for me, the turning point in the Alexa vs. Epic argument will be the integration of the Dragon sensor. The one area where the Alexa has won many supporters is its high dynamic range. Many directors and DPs seem to respond to the creamier highlights and soft dynamic range the Alexa produces... I argue that I TOO could put a low-con on an Epic and sneak in a little more dynamic range and gauziness to the image (as the Alexa does) , but I prefer to have that OPTION...

However, my stumbling blocks with the Alexa are multi-fold beyond just its filter stack... I am extremely dissatisfied with being forced to shoot to SxS cards and Prores... Why an manufacturer would not have a NATIVE solution to record their raw file format on-camera is beyond me. Strapping on a third-party recorder that costs as much as the camera itself is insulting, bulky and about 5 years behind the times... Charging extra to enable new firmware capability is even more infuriating... Point of fact, with their 4:3 sensor option, you cannot opt for an upgrade to your body… NOPE you have buy a whole new camera... And finally, for me, 2.8K resolution is simply not enough for today's market. Even though my arguments fall mostly on deaf ears in the industry that feels okay with a lack of upgradability, nested price increases and pocket digging, and inadequate resolution for reframing (read multi-format deliverables) stabilization, padding for post convergence for 3D, and most importantly optimal MTF performance for 2K and, dare I say, 4K delivery. Alexa propenents will not be swayed… In fact, MANY in the industry feel that 2.8K isn’t even necessary… They shoot to sub-HD resolution Prores files, STILL perform transcodes to edit (why this seems “easier” than the same steps to edit redcode makes NO SENSE) and then they decide that these mid-level, compressed codecs look “good enough” and output those files to be color corrected on… So arguing the benefits of a 5K+ sensor means little.

The cinematographers on these projects are equally guilty for not understanding what is happening to their images. As protectors of the image, shame on them for not educating them selves on this changing technology, shame on them for not guarding the image all of the way through post and fighting this “good enough,” dummied-down mentality seeming to spring up at every turn.

I eagerly await the Dragon upgrade on my camera so I can snuff out the last feasible argument directors or producers can throw at me to shoot an Alexa over an Epic… Dynamic range and sensitive, for now, are the be-all, end-all for a perceived “film look” out of a digital camera. That’s fine. I cannot begin to count the number of jobs I have been offered based on my work (all shot with Epic) where they say, “ We want to shoot Alexa…” I of course then ask why they want to shoot Alexa, they really don’t have concrete arguments other than platitudes of ease of use, creamy highlight, blah, blah, blah… I then say, “Well, you hired me based on my work, right? You obviously liked the way it looked, because that was all shot on Epic!” 90% of the time, we shoot Epic.

I support Red’s business model and continued push for improvements. If only I could have all of them immediately! But then where’s the fun in anticipation then? I will add that Arri's smart move would be to cut their price increases and licensing fees, offer affordable upgrade paths for future improvements and release at LEAST a 4K sensor into the camera immediately... Basically COPY Red’s business model… But with their saturation in the market and blind devotees, they have less incentive to raise their bar rather than milk the current one for as long as possible.
 
Michael I appreciate that you've changed your article to reflect the criticism of the technical details, however it's not really much of an improvement, and if you're going to "take my word for it" on OLPF, why don't "take my word for it" on the rest? I'm not out to just criticize you for criticism's sake - I want you to understand sensors and resolution and optical filtering so you can understand cameras (not just ours) better, and why things work the way they do and what happens if you do something different, why you may want to do something different and what the pros and cons of the approach are.

I don't know why you think Canon's C500 is using anything other than a standard Bayer pattern CFA just like they use in their stills cameras. I see no Canon documentation to the contrary - it's the C300 sensor but the two greens are read out individually rather than being averaged. That's it. The F65 is a bit different, rotating the array through 45 degrees, but as I've written before, that doesn't stop it being a bayer pattern, but does make their decode simpler at the expense of absolute resolution and aliasing performance (there's always a tradeoff), in that they have enough pixels to get a standard bayer 5.6k (which with proper optical filtering would measure around ~4.5k, but instead the aim for 4k and because of that and their undemosaiced green they get aliasing beyond 4k as Sony's MTF diagram shows) and of course their claim to 8k is nonsense.

You're still saying "The only problem with that is that if you increase resolution you also increase moire opportunity." which is utterly untrue, and contrary to basic sampling theory. This is not a red-specific thing, but a basic sampling theory thing. Then you think adding more resolution has no benefit, but as I've pointed out that decreases the potential for aliasing and increases MTF (which is observable at lower spatial resolutions) too.

I keep thinking while reading this section that, and I'm probably putting words in your mouth, but I writing on the impression I get from it, that Bayer patterns are bad when RED does them, but fine when Sony and Canon and Arri do them. Please correct me here, but that's the impression I get.

Graeme
 
Mike,

Interesting article and discussion following... Of course, we have spoken about some of these points before.

One very important angle that always seems to be missed when people start discussing and criticizing RED is to me one of the most important: future-proofing your investment if you are an owner/operator.
To date, this is the new territory that no one but RED has brought to the market.

I've been a shooter for over 30, not quite 40 years now. One constant throughout that time has been replacing cameras. I've owned plenty.

Just considering the past decade or so - bought a new VariCam F. Then, Panasonic upgraded to an H - was I able to swap out a few pieces and viola! ???
Nope - had to sell the F to get the H.
Oops, now they introduce a different recording media - P2 versus tape - just swap out a module? Nope.
oh, and did you want 1080 or 720? Shit, different models, different price tags - each as I recall, costing more than my EPIC.... aaah, never mind.
Or the SONY HDW750 or F900 that I still own- then they introduced the 900R combining some of the best of both - but again, not simply replacing a few boards - or even a sensor. If you want to upgrade, you start over.
Actually, seems to me every one of them cost me more than an EPIC did out of the box.

Talk about any of the manufacturers out there today - can you upgrade the guts of a F3 to something better and get the same body back - or once again, start over.
How about the Alexa - need to record to that new codec? They are happy to turn that on - but, anyone talk much about future upgrade license fees when you start to order one?
How many Canon owners were pissed-off after the newest addition to the product line (from last fall) was superseded just a few months later with a new model - just as some of the folks that ordered the old new were getting their allocation. Upgrade? No such luck.
And if that is not crazy enough, why oh why do manufacturers actually need to re-introduce specific to their camera something as simple as a lens mount - did we not learn how counter productive that was to the cameramen decades ago?

On the other hand, RED today; Modular - not trapped into a single design / form factor compromise. Upgradeable (M becomes MX, S35 will become Dragon - and more to come). Leading edge in image capture capability. I do admit - I appreciate being given new features at no charge - RED's policy - don't remember anyone treating me like that in the past 40 - can't think of anyone else doing it now.
Perfect? Not at all. Still waiting for some features that should have been there by now.
Attitude has been an issue at times (from every side - even mine sometimes)
Room for improvement? Absolutely. That is the point on which I most agree with you.

Then again, as others are beginning to revise their strategy and catch up on certain "features", RED has continually pushed the envelope - raising the bar instead of sitting on laurels.
While I will admit to liking that approach, the question then becomes, am I a fanboy?
No - and you know that from knowing me. I'm a filmmaker first. Just give me the tools to use. They seem to be doing a damn good job of giving the creatives something exceptional to work with. Let others join in - we all benefit.
 
I applaud RED for providing true upgrade paths--this is something the large Japanese manufacturers have worked hard to avoid for decades.
As a small rental house owner, the need for new cameras is a good thing for me, not so good for DP's buying their own cameras.

Being a C300 PL owner, I was irritated by the need to commit to just one lens mount, but I don't see the C500 as apples and apples to a C300.
The former will be sold at a much higher price point and provides a capability, albeit to an outboard recorder(adding more to the price), that I wasn't interested in.

I do have to compete against DP's who tell their clients that a Canon 7D is the right tool for every type of project. If a client believes that, they probably wouldn't know the difference anyway. Similarly, I hear RED owners say the same, but clearly the latter offers more flexibility for more types of projects.

I'm happy that RED has put pressure on the big Japanese manufacturers, we are all better for it, even us non-RED users.
 
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