Life after Red

[Michael N. Sutton]

Hi Graeme, I did read what your wrote. I know its doesn't sell Red cameras to actually point out what other companies are doing right but I don't live in the magic kingdom where one camera does everything for every job. Bayer pattern arrangement does matter. If not to you it does to others.

Can you name any faults with Red at all or will that get your sued or fired? Or do you believe everything is perfect? I believe all camera manufactures have more work to do. I can name specifics and in what areas. That's being honest.

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Sounds like a fairly reasonable article to me. If there are mistakes just tell the guy, it doesn't seem like he has any agenda or axe to grind.
Steve

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Michael, if you read it why don't you address the factual inaccuracies? And don't suggest that we think CFA design doesn't matter - it does, and I've written extensively on the subject to educate people. I don't waste time thinking on areas where our cameras are less than perfect (because all products made are less than perfect) because I'm way too busy working on improvements. High quality criticism is worth it's weight in gold, and when I get such criticism I'll work hard to take it on board and address it. You can see that in the continual improvement in the image quality of our cameras.

Graeme

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Sounds like a fairly reasonable article to me. If there are mistakes just tell the guy, it doesn't seem like he has any agenda or axe to grind.
Steve

We have done...... But what is he saying? He's saying "go on RED, make better products, keep improving!" like obvious and yes, of course we are....

Graeme

 

[Steve Phillipps]

We have done......

Well, some of you have!
He's definitely correct when he says that a lot of people get defensive when any opinion goes against theirs. This forum has got a pretty bad reputation in many corners, largely because of these reactions to any negative or even questioning comments, and it doesn't do anyone any favours.
My opinion, FWIW, is that Red has done a massive service to serious movie makers in bringing the "big name" manufacturers down to reality in terms of pricing. It's also my opinion that all round the Epic is the very best camera out there - for my work (wildlife) at least - due to the combination of incedible picture quality, frame rate versatility, user interface, expandability and size. I only used one for the first time a few weeks back and haven't been so impressed by a piece of kit for ages, in fact probably since the Phantom HD came out.
Steve

 

[Milan Spasic]

Hi Graeme, I did read what your wrote. I know its doesn't sell Red cameras to actually point out what other companies are doing right but I don't live in the magic kingdom where one camera does everything for every job. Bayer pattern arrangement does matter. If not to you it does to others.

Can you name any faults with Red at all or will that get your sued or fired? Or do you believe everything is perfect? I believe all camera manufactures have more work to do. I can name specifics and in what areas. That's being honest.

I don't think it's fair not to answer to questions pointing out fallacies in your article but bring up something nobody has a problem with - other cameras.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Nobody likes to admit they have technical FACTS wrong. And Michael still hasn't addressed his. Even though Graeme just pointed it out AGAIN. C'mon brother. Tell Graeme that you are correct in your facts and prove it. I'm sure Graeme could do so easily.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Steve, you exactly address my point about the right camera for the job. I'd never criticize anyone for using another manufacturers' camera if it's the right tool for the job. Cameras do elicit an emotional response and the "defence of camera" is hardly a uniquely RED phenomena - as mentioned earlier you'll see it as Canon v Nikon, Sigma v everyone else, film v everyone else, Sony v Panasonic etc. etc. If you go to a forum specific for that camera even more so.

Negative comments are of course fine if they're written constructively and well evidenced. As noted above high quality constructive criticism is worth it's weight in gold.

With respect to strong reactions to criticism, if people read a document they will latch onto the weakest aspect of the argument - be it something as simple as bad spelling or grammar, or they'll find one fact wrong or one section wrong. When you're constructing an argument you may think it adds weight to the overall argument to include many sub-arguments (some of which may be weaker than others) that add together. Although this may be factually true, it's poor from the aspect of convincing the reader as if there are any weaker arguments presented they will generally stop reading once they hit a weak (or inaccurate) argument. To present your case well, it's best to focus on a small number of arguments that are strongest and present them, and only them, ignoring any weaker arguments. You see this is my initial response to Michael where I ignore most of what he has to say and focus on correcting his technical errors. Of course, that's also because the technical side of image processing and cameras is my speciality and a subject I like to write on! Then again, the rest of his argument is basically - "RED -watch out! There's companies on your heels. Keep improving, keep moving forwards..." which apart from being obvious is what we do every day.....

Graeme

 

[shashbugu]

Can you name any faults with Red at all or will that get your sued or fired? Or do you believe everything is perfect? I believe all camera manufactures have more work to do. I can name specifics and in what areas. That's being honest.

I guess you don't get it do you? Every company is on an evolutionary path. Red has been first to admit every single shortcoming of its cameras since inception.
Real filmmakers don't really care about a companies attitude on a private forum they own. as long as their customer service and support for the equipment purchased is excellent, who cares if Jannard wants to be their buddy or not.
The Title of your blog article "Life after Red" although personal is very negative. As if to say Red is forcing or has forced you to only use their camera. whether you like it or not Reds mantra is 4k and beyond resolution. Just becos Alexa only shoots 1080p and Arri does not seem to relent on the popularity of 2k that does not mean Red should aspire to do the same.

4k is great. 4k 15 stops even better.

Arri Alexa is not the first choice for Red users, this will never change. Arri are also not only individuals who have been burnt by Red. But really people who have worked with Arri equipment over a very long period of time and feel the Alexa represents a transition to a technology they are used to. Plus like everyone has said the Alexa is a good camera that creates great images.

The f65 has not really proven to have any significant resolution, DR, workflow or even ergonomics over the Epic.
But individuals who have invested in Sony products will immediately be drawn to what they know and trust.

The Red culture has created very critical and demanding customers. This all stemmed from DvXuser.com. Now even Arri's Alexa forum has become very active, and Arri actually responds to user suggestions and support issues right on the forum. I must say it is a very boring forum and has none of familiar family like relationships between manufacturer and client. Irrespective on you calling us fan boys some of us do actually support each other on their projects and workflows regardless off what camera is being used. I spend a few of hours each day on here learning sound, lighting, etc from different sections of the forum from like minded individuals from around the world. My dream of running my own production company was realized After the existence of Red. My "life after Red" is Awsome

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Steve, you exactly address my point about the right camera for the job. I'd never criticize anyone for using another manufacturers' camera if it's the right tool for the job. Cameras do elicit an emotional response and the "defence of camera" is hardly a uniquely RED phenomena - as mentioned earlier you'll see it as Canon v Nikon, Sigma v everyone else, film v everyone else, Sony v Panasonic etc. etc. If you go to a forum specific for that camera even more so.

Negative comments are of course fine if they're written constructively and well evidenced. As noted above high quality constructive criticism is worth it's weight in gold.

With respect to strong reactions to criticism, if people read a document they will latch onto the weakest aspect of the argument - be it something as simple as bad spelling or grammar, or they'll find one fact wrong or one section wrong. When you're constructing an argument you may think it adds weight to the overall argument to include many sub-arguments (some of which may be weaker than others) that add together. Although this may be factually true, it's poor from the aspect of convincing the reader as if there are any weaker arguments presented they will generally stop reading once they hit a weak (or inaccurate) argument. To present your case well, it's best to focus on a small number of arguments that are strongest and present them, and only them, ignoring any weaker arguments. You see this is my initial response to Michael where I ignore most of what he has to say and focus on correcting his technical errors. Of course, that's also because the technical side of image processing and cameras is my speciality and a subject I like to write on! Then again, the rest of his argument is basically - "RED -watch out! There's companies on your heels. Keep improving, keep moving forwards..." which apart from being obvious is what we do every day.....

Graeme

All fair points - without wanting to be patronising, if everyone answered posts like you just did, in a calm, rational way, it would be a much happier community!
Steve

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Steve, it's not just me - there's a fair number of people who post here similarly - just look at the superb answers David Mullen gives, for instance. Of course some people will really react to negatives, but then again, some negatives are written to provoke reaction....

Graeme

 

[Anderson Boyd]

Yea, this guy seems a contrarian who just wants to stoke the fire. An op-ed piece filled with incorrect info. We shouldn't give him the time of day by posting his half-baked, muddy thoughts.

 

[Steve Phillipps]

Yea, this guy seems a contrarian who just wants to stoke the fire. An op-ed piece filled with incorrect info. We shouldn't give him the time of day by posting his half-baked, muddy thoughts.

Ho hum...

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

IMO Sutton made some very interesting observations about the state of the motion camera market. I actually agree with many of his theories but as noted by others his "proofs" are all over the map and some of his technical "facts" are anything but.

In one of Graeme's posts he noted the form factor of the F65 which I think is a critical aspect of the discussion and brings us back to the Dalsa "stillbirth". The picture quality and pricing of the F65 are in the ballpark with the Epic, but modern filmmaking techniques (and the 3D fad) make the much smaller Epic far more valuable. The Epic system also scales far more gracefully to meet diverse assignments than any other camera I can think of. The Epic is the only one of the "big boy" cams small enough to go almost anywhere (maybe a tethered Alexa-M?) and the little RedMags allow you carry a huge amount of storage capacity in your pocket.

While it cannot outperform the Epic, IMO the Sony F3 (using s-log) is the best bang for the buck of the more traditional video cameras. I'd personally prefer a Scarlet in that price range, but for those adverse to the workflow requirements (overblown by many, but still an issue) of R3Ds the F3 is a corker.

Cheers - #19

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Ah, there's another person to add to the list of great forum answers: Blair!

Graeme

 

[Michael N. Sutton]

shashbugu I do get it. Its simple, the point is competition is good and will make a better product and company for all. What is so complicated about my post that a majority of this forum does not comprehend? Competition = good

You mentioned that for Red Users Alexa is not a first choice. I am a Red User and it is my first choice for general shooting. Not all, but for certain jobs absolutely. If I am shooting a background plate for VFX then no, Alexa would not be a first choice. See this is a honest answer that is not biased. See the difference between my answer and others?
Life after Red does not imply its death as some here seem to jump to that conclusion. It simply means others will be putting out 4K cameras and it will not be a monopoly. There will be choice. Choice is good.

I do not have 50K invested into any camera system but I do have the opportunity to use most cameras for free due to my job. This keeps bias and bullshit out and facts in. I do not only work on Red shoots so I encounter many different cameras and am not in awe or wonderment of any of them. Its just a tool. I am a shooter / DP so my concern is lighting and what the client needs in the end. Lets keep the investment arguments and love of a piece of equipment out of it and appreciate my article for what it is. A simple statement. Competition is good. Things need to change.

 

[Michael N. Sutton]

Hi Blair. The Epic form factor (not talking ergonomics as they are not great) is fantastic for 3D. Most of the heavy hitters in the market are beasts and I refer to the F65 as a beast all the time. I personally would not want to shoot with the F65 due to workflow vs its size. I cam from the film world using Moviecam Compacts, Panavision Golds, Arri 535's, etc so size is not a major issue for me. The RAW aspects of Epic for me have been the core reason why I have used it on several projects and spots, especially for anything with VFX work.

What I look for in the next Dragon sensor is sensitivity, highlight handling, dynamic range, etc. What I look forward to from Red as a company are better attitudes, less threats and more innovation.

 

[Scott Crawley]

Life after Red does not imply its death as some here seem to jump to that conclusion. It simply means others will be putting out 4K cameras and it will not be a monopoly.

Ahhh, I read that differently and I suspect others did as well. To me, that title suggests that you have moved on and Red is no longer part of your life. It is as if Red were dead to you. That is the most common way I have seen that expression used.

So you see, the communication problem may have been a relevant point after all. ;-)

 

[Jon MIchael Puntervold]

See this is a honest answer that is not biased. See the difference between my answer and others?

Still, your article is full of factual errors - that you also continue with to some extent in your posts. Fair enough, but it's not unexpected that visitors at a user-forum will take notice. And you should stop claiming you are unbiased, when your article is covered with non-sence and you accuse Red of false marketing, for instance claiming they don't deliver 4k resolution. Nikon and Canon measure their camera sensors in Megapixels, is this also false marketing? You are not unbiased, Sir.

It has nothing to do with being defensive. I think most people see strengths and weaknesses in different camera system.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Ah, there's another person to add to the list of great forum answers: Blair!

Graeme

While I can easily see why many colleagues bemoan the signal to noise ratio on RedUser (we are a VERY diverse group), the only way to improve that would be to ban more posters - an act that seems to rile them even more. Oh the irony.

What I prefer to focus on is the signal. Some of the most creative lateral thinkers in our business post on RedUser. Having one more person defend orthodoxy as obviously better because "that's what everyone does" rarely enhances the petri dish of ideas that an internet forum can foster so effectively. Posters like David Mullen and Mike Most are particularly valuable as they look "under the hood" of facile factoids and address the hows and whys that created the existing industry standards.

Cheers - #19

(Thanks for the shout out Graeme, its my pleasure)