Letus Gimbal

[Nick Morrison]

Damn... the Ronin just got a $1500 price cut.. time for a second round of debate. Honestly though, shipping time will be the ultimate factor for me maybe.

The 4th Axis still sells the Helix for me. That's special. Being able to put it on a Steadycam or a Crane underslung is something I'm still very interested in...

 

[Jason Ano]

An extra $1500-2000 in savings is going straight to wireless FF/monitoring - that's hard to beat. The 4th axis is one of the main factors for my decision to go with Letus in the first place. I have the Laing steadicam, so this is going to be tough. If Ronin ships out before Helix, that'll be too good to pass up for me.

 

[Peter Majtan]

The 4th Axis still sells the Helix for me. That's special. Being able to put it on a Steadycam or a Crane underslung is something I'm still very interested in...

We really need to address this 4th axis thing. What Letus is calling the "4th axis" is really just the doubling of the pan axis.
You need 6 axis in total to stabilise moving camera.
3 axis for rotation and 3 axis for translation.
As I have also explained on another thread - this is what separates gimbals from steadicam systems. Gimbals stabilise 3 axis rotation - while Steadicam systems stabilise 3x in translation.
This is also why one can't replace the other, even they are both used for the same purpose - moving camera.
In a ideal world you need them to work together to stabilise all 6 axis...

For a "true" 4-axis system have a look at this...:

http://youtu.be/H10xVnBCoWw

What sells me on Helix is the ability to separate the axis and use 1 or 2 axis only. THIS is truly unique and amazing. THIS is what sets the Helix apart...

FYI - all the other "traditional" gimbals can be attached to cranes in the underslung mode without the need for any additional "axis" - just a simple mounting bracket or QR system.
Ronin - and other gimbals that can work up-side down - can also be mounted to steadicam in such a position without any additional "axis"...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Kwan Khan]

Damn... the Ronin just got a $1500 price cut.. time for a second round of debate. Honestly though, shipping time will be the ultimate factor for me maybe.

NO way WTF?... this is BIGGG.
Letus... Did you see that? ..... COME-ON Letus your turn now...

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Some people are getting hung up on nomenclature. Call it 4th axis or call it steadicam adaptor or call it sliced bread, it adds capability and it does it elegantly. As Peter points out, the flexibility of the unit, which has yet to be explored even a little, is a great attribute. Letus has refused to call it a "gimbal" for good reason; it really is not like all the other system designs so far.

Most of these systems will work well. The important thing is whether the companies behind them can survive the competition. The new pricing on the Ronin is great for customers. I hope it is well thought out from the perspective of the company. Either their margins were huge prior to the price cut or they have recently figured out how to manufacture them much more cost effectively. If not, their margins will be razor thin, or non-existent. And I wonder how this will effect BeSteady and Movi.

These are interesting times.http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Peter Majtan]

Either their margins were huge prior to the price cut or they have recently figured out how to manufacture them much more cost effectively...

The later - and they have stated so in the other thread. They were overwhelmed by the demand. Only expecting initial orders of 200 per month - they have now 2000 pre-orders (and that was before the price cut!). Suddenly the scale of manufacturing comes to play.
RED has done so on many occasions as well. As they figure out certain manufacturing issues and are able to make things in larger quantities - they have always passed the savings onto us - end customers. DJI is doing the same here...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Grayson Austin]

Hey team, when ordering the 4TH AXIS, there are 4 options for stud size:

16mm - Zolinger
21.4mm - Glidecam
18.8mm - Steadicam
12.57mm - Steadicam

What's the optimal size to pick..for mounting Helix on the REDUSER group buy Laing steadycam?

Thanks!

best

Armpost diameters have never been absolutes but there were and still are some standards to go by, mostly in inches though.
The most common standard that is still around today is the PRO GPI standard which was also the Cinema Products 3/3A arm post size of 5/8 inch (.625 inches actually now). It was common on film sets because it was also the diameter of the now widely used grip pin or baby pin size. It actually translates to 15.875 mm. This doesn't take into account for slight differences like anodizing thickness, etc (it should actually but i have several arm posts that are not exactly the same .625 inches). Most professional manufacturers went with this as a standard. When Tiffen took over the Steadicam name, they created a new standard which was 3/4 inch (actually .74 inches) which translates to 18.796 mm. This is the current arm post diameter for their "Big Rigs", Ultra2, etc. They do have rigs that use other smaller sizes like the 1/2 inch arm posts (.5 inches) which translates to 12.7 mm. This size is not typically used for the bigger rigs and camera payloads for obvious reasons. Even 5/8 inch arm posts can fail under heavy loads if the arm post is very long, old, damaged already, used violently, etc. Anything other than those is a bit of a non-standard size and you should carefully measure the diameter of your arm post to make sure you order correctly. I was not aware that Glidecam was doing arms with a larger diameter arm post than Tiffen but maybe. For the longest time they were compatible with the PRO GPI size arm posts.
The 16mm listing should fit a PRO standard arm post just fine.
The 18.8mm should fit the Tiffen Ultra, Ultra2, Master Series, etc.
The 12.57mm i guess is meant to fit the smaller arm posts from Tiffen but is a hair off in the wrong direction.
I have no idea about that 21.4mm listing. That would be a large diameter arm post.
Best to get exact specs for Laing especially if they are not following any of the above standards.

hope that helps a bit.

Grayson Grant Austin, SOC

 

[Nick Morrison]

Armpost diameters have never been absolutes but there were and still are some standards to go by, mostly in inches though.
The most common standard that is still around today is the PRO GPI standard which was also the Cinema Products 3/3A arm post size of 5/8 inch (.625 inches actually now). It was common on film sets because it was also the diameter of the now widely used grip pin or baby pin size. It actually translates to 15.875 mm. This doesn't take into account for slight differences like anodizing thickness, etc (it should actually but i have several arm posts that are not exactly the same .625 inches). Most professional manufacturers went with this as a standard. When Tiffen took over the Steadicam name, they created a new standard which was 3/4 inch (actually .74 inches) which translates to 18.796 mm. This is the current arm post diameter for their "Big Rigs", Ultra2, etc. They do have rigs that use other smaller sizes like the 1/2 inch arm posts (.5 inches) which translates to 12.7 mm. This size is not typically used for the bigger rigs and camera payloads for obvious reasons. Even 5/8 inch arm posts can fail under heavy loads if the arm post is very long, old, damaged already, used violently, etc. Anything other than those is a bit of a non-standard size and you should carefully measure the diameter of your arm post to make sure you order correctly. I was not aware that Glidecam was doing arms with a larger diameter arm post than Tiffen but maybe. For the longest time they were compatible with the PRO GPI size arm posts.
The 16mm listing should fit a PRO standard arm post just fine.
The 18.8mm should fit the Tiffen Ultra, Ultra2, Master Series, etc.
The 12.57mm i guess is meant to fit the smaller arm posts from Tiffen but is a hair off in the wrong direction.
I have no idea about that 21.4mm listing. That would be a large diameter arm post.
Best to get exact specs for Laing especially if they are not following any of the above standards.

hope that helps a bit.

Grayson Grant Austin, SOC

Thanks Grayson. Very helpful. Im waiting for word back from Laing if 16mm is indeed correct (that's my guess also)

best

 

[Zeb B]

NO way WTF?... this is BIGGG.
Letus... Did you see that? ..... COME-ON Letus your turn now...

Letus is based in Portland USA. They pay USA wages, taxes and comply with strict environmental laws not to mention work against a currency exchange that is held artifically low. To ask and an American manufacturing company to match the price of a Chinese based firm is the same as them asking you to compete with a filmmaker that operates at a small fraction of your cost basis.

DJI is following the classic Chinese / Walmart playbook of using their low cost to destroy competition. While is cool that RED Users are getting a deal, I am sad to see yet another American company asked to reduce their employees wages and environmental compliance costs to meet those of a Chinese company. I have seen main street America be decimated from having to compete straight up with Walmart / Asia - not excited to be a part of that party.

 

[Marcos Montenegro]

Hear, hear Zeb!

Letus is based in Portland USA. They pay USA wages, taxes and comply with strict environmental laws not to mention work against a currency exchange that is held artifically low. To ask and an American manufacturing company to match the price of a Chinese based firm is the same as them asking you to compete with a filmmaker that operates at a small fraction of your cost basis.

DJI is following the classic Chinese / Walmart playbook of using their low cost to destroy competition. While is cool that RED Users are getting a deal, I am sad to see yet another American company asked to reduce their employees wages and environmental compliance costs to meet those of a Chinese company. I have seen main street America be decimated from having to compete straight up with Walmart / Asia - not excited to be a part of that party.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

Letus is based in Portland USA. They pay USA wages, taxes and comply with strict environmental laws not to mention work against a currency exchange that is held artifically low. To ask and an American manufacturing company to match the price of a Chinese based firm is the same as them asking you to compete with a filmmaker that operates at a small fraction of your cost basis.

DJI is following the classic Chinese / Walmart playbook of using their low cost to destroy competition. While is cool that RED Users are getting a deal, I am sad to see yet another American company asked to reduce their employees wages and environmental compliance costs to meet those of a Chinese company. I have seen main street America be decimated from having to compete straight up with Walmart / Asia - not excited to be a part of that party.

Apple is an American company which gets all its iphones and ipads etc manufactured by Foxconn (Hon hai). Foxconn was known for its employee suicides etc. What did Apple do? It simply benefited. What about Go Pro? American shareholders should have put pressure if this is really an issue. If the motto is enjoy till it is to your advantage and cry when it hits you hard, then it is not fair.

I have personally visited some of these plants and know how hard the chinese/taiwanese workers are. Yes I would love that their workers get better hostels and other facilities. I would be happy if the chinese Govt. protects IPR. Many companies there use the economies of scale to get things cheaper. DJI model is based on volumes. Trashing their effort to low wages is not right as wage is not a major component in these high volume electronic manufacturing factories.

The good thing is that because of the 2999 usd pricing, many of the garage machinists will wind up. Some companies who are struggling to deliver after 8/9 months of accepting full payment for gimbal will also face the heat.

If one analyses the business practices of DJI, one would predict that the Ronin is an initial version and there would be a version II whenever they are ready and feel can again milk the same group of buyers and/or a new group of buyers. Till now they had a problem of weight. Now by slashing the price, they have changed the game and created a huge positive buzz.

No point in sympathising with Letus. Give them your feedback and help them improve and compete. Only sympathy cannot help someone remain alive.

PS: I agree that Walmart killed a class of shopkeepers in US. Have no respect for Walmart. However, I had in the past given consulting to a company to help improve their quality and become a supplier of walmart.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Letus is based in Portland USA. They pay USA wages, taxes and comply with strict environmental laws not to mention work against a currency exchange that is held artifically low. To ask and an American manufacturing company to match the price of a Chinese based firm is the same as them asking you to compete with a filmmaker that operates at a small fraction of your cost basis.

DJI is following the classic Chinese / Walmart playbook of using their low cost to destroy competition. While is cool that RED Users are getting a deal, I am sad to see yet another American company asked to reduce their employees wages and environmental compliance costs to meet those of a Chinese company. I have seen main street America be decimated from having to compete straight up with Walmart / Asia - not excited to be a part of that party.

That is very correct , and though people dont seem to realise that very often , it comes one day that when un-employment rises , and then you loose your job, and then you remember it again, and understand how this works. What goes around comes around.

What people have to understand is , that they should be happy , getting a wide choice of products at a very good price.

If you feel that companies should squeeze their employees wages , factory fees, and make their employees work for Chinese, or Indian, or Vietnamese wages, then you should also accept the fact that your rates should be the excat rates operators charge in China, India, or Vietnam, and you should also tell your government to lower all of the everyday use products you need to buy every day , to feed your children, and pay daily, to Chinese, indian, and Vietnamese countries, at well as the total cost on living and paying taxes in your country and what else comes with it.

When people stop thinking ONLY about their personal pocket, and operate united and with common sense for the common benefit, only then things will get better.


first thing you look is the product . If it satisfies you as a product and as a tool.

then you should care , is if a 100, 200, or even 1000 dollar difference that you pay once , will have any longer effect, in your life in the long run, as the way I see it this 100-1000 dollars is just a few gigs counted at the fingers of one hand. So is it worth it?

Iam not against getting anything that is Chinese all European, on any other origin, I just think that is not fair to try and tell companies that operate inside Europe or America, or other countries and pay huge amount of money in wages and taxes to support their workers and families , to lower their prices to equal those of very low operational cost countries, unless you are ready to accept the same for your own job and life style.

This post is not to insult or tell anybody what to do, but its rather made just to explain my point of view, just as Zeb did.

kind regards

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Sabyasachi Patra writes

Till now they had a problem of weight. Now by slashing the price, they have changed the game and created a huge positive buzz.

so what you say is , that because they were heavier, they went cheaper? does that makes any difference for your hands? or is it just your pocket?

what you should really look at , is the reason why its more heavy and if it makes sense to your application and work.

Nothing else. Sorry to disagree with your statement but it doesnt work like this .

A professional chooses the product first by the measure of , if its the correct product for his application. Price is relative, but when differences are small its not relevant and should be not taken as a measure and compromise with something that doesnt full fill your needs just because you save some dollars.

At least thats what I understand from what I read in your post on this very sentence, and forgive me in case I got it wrong.

kind regards

Edit- just edited a few mistakes and also apologise for the post if its not related to the thread purpose.

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

The good thing is that because of the 2999 usd pricing, many of the garage machinists will wind up. Some companies who are struggling to deliver after 8/9 months of accepting full payment for gimbal will also face the heat.

what you write here my friend is not fair, unless you know the exact situation and what happened in companies you are implying they are GARAGE MACHINISTS.

And because Iam pretty certain you dont know each case, I would not make statements like this, its not fair unless you are 100% sure.

you dont have to be a supermarket company company to serve the industry,or else you are a garage machinist,and generaly speaking there are many smaller range companies that have been serving the industry with respectful products for years.

PRO GPI is a family company serving the industry for years making excellent products made in USA and selling world wide. Would you call them garage machine shop?

Any company can fall into trouble some time, and that doesnt mean they are crooks or garage machinist looking for the occasional opportunity.

this is not a fair statement.

kind regards

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Price is price. You can complain, criticize or celebrate but it's about competition. But price isn't the only way to compete. In fact, it is probably the worst way to compete as a business. It becomes all about price. The Ronin seems to be a perfectly viable product. But, my take is that DJI lost a lot of momentum because of a series of missteps in the group buy and some delays in delivery. Their reputation suffered. The were having a hard time competing for share of mind. What could they do to change the conversation? A drastic price reduction does that. Look, that competing product is even now being discussed on a thread about the Helix!

However, no matter what the claim, I don't see how they can go from $4500 to $3000 and not take a serious hit to their margins. "Finding" efficiencies of that magnitude for a manufactured product just because you bump the volume a bit is, IMO, hard to do. Two thousand units may be 10x 200, but we aren't talking about 100,000. We will see. In the mean time, customers' risk is lowered quite a bit. Many more are now willing to give it a try. DJI is buying market share.

There is so very much I like about the Helix because it is a whole different design - not a copy of the expensive brand at less money. And as much as I love the features of the unique product design, I am super confident that the Letus folks are investing heavily in making the Helix the premium product in the category. It will evolve and an already solid product will get even better. With an NDA in place, all I can say is, there's a lot more to come.

Let the games begin. :smiley:http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[constantine Tirintzis]

Price is price. You can complain, criticize or celebrate but it's about competition. But price isn't the only way to compete. In fact, it is probably the worst way to compete as a business. It becomes all about price. The Ronin seems to be a perfectly viable product. But, my take is that DJI lost a lot of momentum because of a series of missteps in the group buy and some delays in delivery. Their reputation suffered. The were having a hard time competing for share of mind. What could they do to change the conversation? A drastic price reduction does that. Look, that competing product is even now being discussed on a thread about the Helix!

However, no matter what the claim, I don't see how they can go from $4500 to $3000 and not take a serious hit to their margins. "Finding" efficiencies of that magnitude for a manufactured product just because you bump the volume a bit is, IMO, hard to do. Two thousand units may be 10x 200, but we aren't talking about 100,000. We will see. In the mean time, customers' risk is lowered quite a bit. Many more are now willing to give it a try. DJI is buying market share.

There is so very much I like about the Helix because it is a whole different design - not a copy of the expensive brand at less money. And as much as I love the features of the unique product design, I am super confident that the Letus folks are investing heavily in making the Helix the premium product in the category. It will evolve and an already solid product will get even better. With an NDA in place, all I can say is, there's a lot more to come.

Let the games begin. :smiley:http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

correctly put.

 

[Zeb B]

Apple is an American company which gets all its iphones and ipads etc manufactured by Foxconn (Hon hai). Foxconn was known for its employee suicides etc. What did Apple do? It simply benefited. What about Go Pro? American shareholders should have put pressure if this is really an issue. If the motto is enjoy till it is to your advantage and cry when it hits you hard, then it is not fair.

I have personally visited some of these plants and know how hard the chinese/taiwanese workers are. Yes I would love that their workers get better hostels and other facilities. I would be happy if the chinese Govt. protects IPR. Many companies there use the economies of scale to get things cheaper. DJI model is based on volumes. Trashing their effort to low wages is not right as wage is not a major component in these high volume electronic manufacturing factories.

The good thing is that because of the 2999 usd pricing, many of the garage machinists will wind up. Some companies who are struggling to deliver after 8/9 months of accepting full payment for gimbal will also face the heat.

If one analyses the business practices of DJI, one would predict that the Ronin is an initial version and there would be a version II whenever they are ready and feel can again milk the same group of buyers and/or a new group of buyers. Till now they had a problem of weight. Now by slashing the price, they have changed the game and created a huge positive buzz.

No point in sympathising with Letus. Give them your feedback and help them improve and compete. Only sympathy cannot help someone remain alive.

PS: I agree that Walmart killed a class of shopkeepers in US. Have no respect for Walmart. However, I had in the past given consulting to a company to help improve their quality and become a supplier of walmart.

I admire Letus for competing through innovation - rather than just a differential cost structure.

Giving Letus "feedback" will not change the basic unlevel playing field that exists against American manufacturing firms. Our government has sold out that segment of the economy since they are puppets of their multi-national masters who see no advantage to a healthy domestic job base. If fact they want a local recession since that lowers the cost of doing business and increases their power over the common worker.

Walmart is a welfare company. It costs the American taxpayer close to $1M per store to subsidize their employees (food stamps, healthcare etc) since they do not pay a working wage. Props to Seattle and others for passing a $15/hr minimum wage.

The next time I see a post from a RU whining about a cheap Epic rental rate or a offshore CGI company that eliminated their job I be sure to point out the glee in the $2,999 price. It takes more than changing your avatar to green or a Facebook "Like" to support domestic innovation and sustainability.

I certainly don't blame DJI for playing to their cost and location advantage since in capitalism the basic goal is to brutally eliminate competition to gain a monopolistic position. The Chinese are playing the game we invented the rules to. Americans bitch about their jobs going offshore . . . while standing in line to buy $3 crap t-shirts in Walmart.

In the end the individual user needs to step back and ask: is $2,999 or $4,000 the real determining factor for me personally or should I look at the specific design and my mission for the product? For me I will get a Ronin when they prove they can fly on the bottom of the S1000 Octo since that is what it is best designed for. For a heavy RED / Arri package . . . I'm waiting for the release of the Helix HL which is their heavy lift gimbal. For a light RED package: you can't beat the current Helix design of bottom mount to get the lens up to eye-line and easy mounting to a Steadi arm.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I admire Letus for competing through innovation - rather than just a differential cost structure.

Giving Letus "feedback" will not change the basic unlevel playing field that exists against American manufacturing firms. Our government has sold out that segment of the economy since they are puppets of their multi-national masters who see no advantage to a healthy domestic job base. If fact they want a local recession since that lowers the cost of doing business and increases their power over the common worker.

Walmart is a welfare company. It costs the American taxpayer close to $1M per store to subsidize their employees (food stamps, healthcare etc) since they do not pay a working wage. Props to Seattle and others for passing a $15/hr minimum wage.

The next time I see a post from a RU whining about a cheap Epic rental rate or a offshore CGI company that eliminated their job I be sure to point out the glee in the $2,999 price. It takes more than changing your avatar to green or a Facebook "Like" to support domestic innovation and sustainability.

I certainly don't blame DJI for playing to their cost and location advantage since in capitalism the basic goal is to brutally eliminate competition to gain a monopolistic position. The Chinese are playing the game we invented the rules to. Americans bitch about their jobs going offshore . . . while standing in line to buy $3 crap t-shirts in Walmart.

In the end the individual user needs to step back and ask: is $2,999 or $4,000 the real determining factor for me personally or should I look at the specific design and my mission for the product? For me I will get a Ronin when they prove they can fly on the bottom of the S1000 Octo since that is what it is best designed for. For a heavy RED / Arri package . . . I'm waiting for the release of the Helix HL which is their heavy lift gimbal. For a light RED package: you can't beat the current Helix design of bottom mount to get the lens up to eye-line and easy mounting to a Steadi arm.

Where's the "Like" button? :thumbsup:http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[Kwan Khan]

Ok fellas' lets make it enough of this robust bench playing (juz' joke -lol),

This is just an event in which people compete. lets make it fair and have a heavy-hitter (letus) response on this issue.

 

[Zeb B]

Ok fellas' lets make it enough of this robust bench playing (juz' joke -lol),

This is just an event in which people compete. lets make it fair and have a heavy-hitter (letus) response on this issue.

They already have - they are shipping fairly priced product