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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Let's Talk Epic Rentals! ....

AnthonyFlores said:
1. What will be the typical daily rental price for the Epic-X?

2. Is having a backup brain an absolute MUST for smaller rental clients?

3. Does anyone already have a specific rental package/price in mind?

4. How necessary is it to also have a lens kit available with rentals?

5. Do you see the prices being much higher in the beginning (basically summer/maybe fall) due to limited availability?

6. Will the Epic-S rent for basically half price of Epic-X?

7. Is insurance a lot more when you're renting out your gear often?
Thanks,

Anthony
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1. This will be determined by market sector. The rental market is divided into sectors and each sector has evolved an historical mean average. Sometimes they are similar, sometimes not. There are factors in each sector that are unique and affect pricing.

2.If they require it, they will pay for it.

3. Yes. If your rate is too high, the market will correct it for you.

4. If you can predict which set of primes a specific DP will want, you should run a sports book in Vegas.

5. Supply and demand. The golden age of rental income on an Epic will last weeks, not months.

6. Not as much as people think.

7. You must always require insurance from the renter. Even if its a friend. Especially if its your friend.
 
I remember when the RED first came out and people freaked out about this same issue. The "Sherman Anti Trust Act. Section 1" doesn't say we can't talk about it, it says we can't price fix.

I don't even think price fixing is possible in this market as there are too many owners with too many various circumstances.

I think I can tell you how it will play out.

Some people will get top dollar for it with some early rentals, way more than they will 3 months later. Some people will get nothing for it, holding out for top dollar. Some people will get very little, renting it out the same price as RED just to get some market share which they don't have yet. Some people will offer it "free" if you rent your entire production equipment package from them. And so on.

I think it's going to be all over the map for the first 3 month or, until maybe 1,000 cameras are out in the wild. I suspect at that time - just a total hunch - that it will end up resting about at 15 to 20 percent over what the MX is today and the MX will be about 20% less than what it is today.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
1. This will be determined by market sector. The rental market is divided into sectors and each sector has evolved an historical mean average. Sometimes they are similar, sometimes not. There are factors in each sector that are unique and affect pricing.

2.If they require it, they will pay for it.

3. Yes. If your rate is too high, the market will correct it for you.

4. If you can predict which set of primes a specific DP will want, you should run a sports book in Vegas.

5. Supply and demand. The golden age of rental income on an Epic will last weeks, not months.

6. Not as much as people think.

7. You must always require insurance from the renter. Even if its a friend. Especially if its your friend.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the straightforward answers Jeff. Much appreciated.
 
Mark Allen said:
I remember when the RED first came out and people freaked out about this same issue. The "Sherman Anti Trust Act. Section 1" doesn't say we can't talk about it, it says we can't price fix.

I don't even think price fixing is possible in this market as there are too many owners with too many various circumstances.

I think I can tell you how it will play out.

Some people will get top dollar for it with some early rentals, way more than they will 3 months later. Some people will get nothing for it, holding out for top dollar. Some people will get very little, renting it out the same price as RED just to get some market share which they don't have yet. Some people will offer it "free" if you rent your entire production equipment package from them. And so on.

I think it's going to be all over the map for the first 3 month or, until maybe 1,000 cameras are out in the wild. I suspect at that time - just a total hunch - that it will end up resting about at 15 to 20 percent over what the MX is today and the MX will be about 20% less than what it is today.
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I agree with you Mark, thank you -- I don't think it's wrong to discuss pricing ... I've seen people tell others what they are renting a specific package before on many forums. It's another thing to have conversations or work actively to make sure a price stays at a certain level. That's where the legal problems come in.

My guess: Those with early Stage 2 deliveries will be able to charge $1,000+ per day for a little while .... until as you say, there are more Epic cameras in the wild. Then it will go closer to $600-700 per day at some point in the summer -- which as you pointed out, is about 15-20% higher than the MX rentals generally are right now.
 
Epic rental prices should fall in line with other cameras on the market. Rental prices are not determined by purchase price in the way that they were a few years ago.
 
Brook Willard said:
Epic rental prices should fall in line with other cameras on the market. Rental prices are not determined by purchase price in the way that they were a few years ago.
Click to expand...

Agreed!
 
EPIC RENTAL RATES?
All I know is feature for feature - it should definitely rent for MORE than a fucking Alexa with batteries and a couple 32GB cards.

Here is the PRICING in Portland, OR for the ONLY Alexa supplier.

Arri Alexa EV
Alev III Super35 sized CMOS Sensor,
3.5K Resolution,
13.5+ Stops of Latitude,
800 ISO,
PL Mount,
DTE-Direct to Edit Workflow,
.75-60fps,
Arri Raw/ProRes 4444 or 422(HQ) Recording,
12/24 Volt Operation
Includes: Electronic Viewfinder,
2-32gb SxS Pro Cards, V
CLX 12v/24v Block Battery,
Arri Digital Baseplate

- 1500.00/day!

EPIC-X
$2000/day in our market until the market corrects. And Ill just point them to the ALEXA rate when they bitch...
 
I'd have to agree. There is some educational value in talking about how someone would approach their economics to arrive at their rate. That isn't price fixing. There's just too many players in too many markets to do that. So trying to "set a price" or "affecting a price" is pretty impossible in this space.
 
Tim Whitcomb said:
EPIC RENTAL RATES?
All I know is feature for feature - it should definitely rent for MORE than a fucking Alexa with batteries and a couple 32GB cards.....
Click to expand...


I'd be interested to hear from anyone out there that disagrees with this.

Prices will vary in diff markets. ...but this should remain a constant, I would think.
 
Joe Kleber said:
I'd be interested to hear from anyone out there that disagrees with this.

Prices will vary in diff markets. ...but this should remain a constant, I would think.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, because quite honestly the R1 M-X holds up pretty well against Alexa in terms of features, with each camera having some pros and cons, yet Alexa is renting for $1200-$1500/day depending on market and an M-X is generally less. There really are a lot of factors that go into pricing this stuff and that's why it's so hard to say for sure what the rates are going to be.

In theory, you would think Epic would always rent out for more than an Alexa, but reality might end up being something different.

Bottom line. Anyone renting a camera system, whether you are a rental house or an owner/op will do market research as well as figuring out your own financial needs and some of the other factors such as upkeep to come to a price that makes sense for you and your clients. It's the same for any business really.
 
An example. Company X in my market rents cameras at the following rates.

Phantom HD Gold - $2500/day
Alexa - $1200/day
RED M-X - $800/day

Obviously the Phantom commands the rate it does because of its specific application and there are fewer of them around.

But is Alexa $400/day better than a R1 M-X? This is what that rental house has determined to be the price point that make sense for them and their customers. And they have been at this for a while.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
There really are a lot of factors that go into pricing this stuff and that's why it's so hard to say for sure what the rates are going to be.
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Hi Steve

...excellent posts. The rates you quoted sound a lot like your average EAST COAST rates. ...but you are right. The guys that do this every day will weigh all the contributing factors and price the equipment at what the market will bear.

I think it's fairly evident that even though the R1MX competes well with the ALEXA, availability (or lack there of) and name are two big factors.

I wouldn't attempt to say what the rate should be, but I just don't see how you're even in the same ball park (if the EPIC is what they say it is) compared to the others.
 
One thing to remember is that camera rental is, of course, a business; presumably with the motive of making a profit. There is obviously a supply and demand balance for any product, including the rental of cameras. And, for any business. there is competition and other marketplace factors.

One simple reason the Alexa might rent for more than Epic is that it costs more to purchase one. Competition can only push rental rates for the Alexa down so far. Once the pressure pushes it to where there is no longer a profit in renting it, there will be no incentive to offer it. On the Epic side, I can imagine the rental rates will be quite high early on, when supply is constrained, but once there are a lot of Epics in the market, rental houses would rather keep them working and can afford to drop prices lower than they can afford to drop the Alexa simply because they cost less to purchase. Of course, the balance of supply (which camera is more available) and demand (which camera is more desired) will tweak the equation as well.

Bottom line, it's all about ROI. But, in business, it is never simple to figure out ahead of time exactly how to maximize it. That's what makes it so much fun! :scared:
 
I can see one scenario where Epic holds its rental price well past the initial "scarce" phase.

As more cameras become available, I think it will be possible that the reputation for the camera will grow and there will be a growth in demand for Epic. This could protect the rental price even with more supply.
 
Elsie N said:
I can see one scenario where Epic holds its rental price well past the initial "scarce" phase.

As more cameras become available, I think it will be possible that the reputation for the camera will grow and there will be a growth in demand for Epic. This could protect the rental price even with more supply.
Click to expand...

Yes. The Hobbit requires 30+ of them, presumably for run of show. If every movie shooting Epic needs multiple cameras, then the supply contracts and expands nicely as more projects ramp up and down. 3D doubles the number required, so I'm a huge fan of 3D production.
 
Steve Sherrick said:
An example. Company X in my market rents cameras at the following rates.

Phantom HD Gold - $2500/day
Alexa - $1200/day
RED M-X - $800/day

Obviously the Phantom commands the rate it does because of its specific application and there are fewer of them around.

But is Alexa $400/day better than a R1 M-X? This is what that rental house has determined to be the price point that make sense for them and their customers. And they have been at this for a while.
Click to expand...

Well despite another comment on here - would you agree Steve, that CAMERA PRICE has a direct correlation to rental pricing? sure seems evident here... and as Alexa will be more than EPIC, I can almost guarantee our lone camera house will price EPIC less than his beloved ALEXA... even though the EPIC now has DTE by recording off the 1080P output...

why beloved? because the Arri brand lets them overcharge... RED brand doesnt. YET
(mostly due to all the low balling R1 owner ops who had no business being an owner op)
fortunately the market killed most of those dudes and dudettes. So mostly the pro owner ops remain.
 
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