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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Let's Talk Epic Rentals! ....

AnthonyFlores

AnthonyFlores

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Hi Guys,

Wanted to start a thread about all the different aspects/issues of the Epic rental process -- and hopefully get feedback/input from those with more experience than I have ....

1. What will be the typical daily rental price for the Epic-X?

I know that basic RedOne packages -- with power, media, etc typically go for around $500 per day/$1500 per week in LA. RedOne MX is about the same but is basically brain only, doesn't include media or batteries. (I'm going off of Indierentals.com pricing, which is fairly typical for the LA market -- I'm sure prices can be higher or lower, depending on where you are at.)

In light of this, will the Epic-X be $700-800 for the brain and then $1,000-1,500 when you include media/power? Or because they will be so scarce in the beginning does everyone see the prices being higher?

2. I know it's hard to rent to big studios/productions unless you have a gazillion backup bodies, and so on -- but how many accessories (and which ones) you think would need to be contained in an attractive rental package for the Epic-X? Is having a backup brain an absolute MUST for smaller rental clients?

3. Does anyone already have a specific rental package/price in mind?

4. How necessary is it to also have a lens kit available with rentals? I know that Red Pro Primes are awesome, but not always easily rented due to DP biases ... what other lens sets/pricing do Epic users plan on offering?

5. Do you see the prices being much higher in the beginning (basically summer/maybe fall) due to limited availability? Then -- if you're renting your Epic -- do you plan on dropping the price once they are more plentiful later in the year?

6. Will the Epic-S rent for basically half price of Epic-X?

7. Is insurance a lot more when you're renting out your gear often? Curious about how much people expect to pay to insure their Epic packages ...

(Note: I haven't mentioned Epic-M because it's so limited, applies to very small number of people, and won't have any extra rental value once Stage 2 deliveries start happening en masse.)

Also if anyone has any other thoughts or opinions about Epic rentals I would love to hear them -- I'm very new to rentals (fairly new to Red overall) and this seems like a nice way to help finance the gear, since some of my projects are royalty-based and so my compensation is delayed ....

Thanks,

Anthony
 
as i said many years ago...talking about this stuff on the internet in a public forum is against anti-trust laws....

the market will bear out the prices.
 
dino g said:
as i said many years ago...talking about this stuff on the internet in a public forum is against anti-trust laws....

the market will bear out the prices.
Click to expand...

Are you serious? So we can't discuss rental prices here? Hmmmm ....
 
dino g said:
as i said many years ago...talking about this stuff on the internet in a public forum is against anti-trust laws....

the market will bear out the prices.
Click to expand...

actually, as far as I know that's not exactly true unless it was being used in a way that is trying to control the market. But I think the overall point is valid, that this isn't the best place to set rental rates. Besides, there are too many variables, and too many markets which all have their own parameters.

But to answer some of your questions Anthony:

Lens Kit: Certainly helps get deals done. The catch-22 is you won't always meet the needs of the production if you just have one set of lenses. They may want S4s, Superspeeds, Masters, or an Angie zoom. It's based on the job, the DP, etc. So buying lenses should serve another purpose than just rentals.

Epic-X initial rates: Yes, expect them to be higher if there is limited supply. When things settle, will probably drop but will most likely be right in line with Alexa, etc.

Insurance: There are some excellent insurance plans out there. Some have been listed here at Reduser in various threads. Insurance depends on how much gear, where it travels, etc. In the overall scheme of things it's not that expensive. The biggest challenge could come when you need to put in a claim. That's where I would focus the research and make sure the company you choose has a good track record.

The one other thing to keep in mind is maintenance. If you rent your gear out, you may see an increase in repair and keeping up with things. That's why rental companies are in such a better position because they have the personnel to keep up with it and they can provide replacement items when they go down. Something to definitely keep in mind.

As for the rest, I do agree with Dino. I would do some research on your market and ask people off the record.
 
Epic is by far the best digital cinema camera invented yet, the price will be accordingly minus the reputation of some of the competition (despite their shortfalls).

You rent it for what it is worth - depending on availability, and what the competiiton is charging.

At the moment with only ONE that is theoretically rentable, 00007, Off hollywood could probably charge whatever they want (within reason), meaning well in excess of 1000US$ per day.

Obviously as the availability increases there will be a drop in prices, same as with the release of the R1. When the Scarlet S35 hits the streets prices will drop futher.

But what is certain, is that in the hands of the right people this camera is worth it´s weight in gold, be it a rental business or a good cinematographer!

Traditional answer: expect somewhere between 1 and 2 % of the initial cost per day minus rebates. (when the camera is widely available + (hopefully) a compensation for it beeing the best digital cinema camera available- period)
 
While warranty doesn't relate to rental pricing, it might be affected by a camera being used more if being used as a rental.

Because of that, I hope EPIC will have a split warranty. That is, x amount of time or x number of hours, whichever comes first.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled subject matter.
 
Steve Das said:
Most owner/operators will just rent to their friends. Rentals as a business is fairly
capital intensive especially to get started initially. But you can always start small
to test the waters and build from there...here is very good article on how Lee
Utterbach did just that back in the day..up in San Francisco.

http://cinesourcemagazine.com/index.php?%2Fsite%2Fcomments%2Fvenerable_camera_rental_closes_the_exit_interview_with_lee_utterbach1%2F
Click to expand...

Great article Steve. Thanks ... yah I wouldn't be starting a full-fledged "rental business" and frankly I'm very emotionally attached to gear, so even the thought of renting it out is a little scary ...

But just trying to get some thoughts from owners/operators who rent their stuff on a regular basis to help finance the cost.

Anthony
 
AnthonyFlores said:
Great article Steve. Thanks ... yah I wouldn't be starting a full-fledged "rental business" and frankly I'm very emotionally attached to gear, so even the thought of renting it out is a little scary ...

But just trying to get some thoughts from owners/operators who rent their stuff on a regular basis to help finance the cost.

Anthony
Click to expand...

You'll probably fall into the category that I'm in. I rent it out only on jobs that I'm on as DIT or operator. The rest of the time it works on my own productions. The rental days certainly helped go towards paying for it.
 
AnthonyFlores said:
Great article Steve. Thanks ... yah I wouldn't be starting a full-fledged "rental business" and frankly I'm very emotionally attached to gear, so even the thought of renting it out is a little scary ...

But just trying to get some thoughts from owners/operators who rent their stuff on a regular basis to help finance the cost.

Anthony
Click to expand...

Hi Anthony,

If you're emotionally attached to gear I would seriously advise against renting it out, unless you are working on the shoot yourself. It will get beaten up, there is no two ways about it. It seems to me you would be more satisfied using it yourself no matter what, so perhaps you can find ways to make that happen. If you are dedicated enough and you can find yourself some kind of niche or style of shoot to specialize in I believe you would be much happier than renting it out. There are great examples of people on this very forum who have managed to do so. Renting is purely a business, or ought to be. You cannot afford to be attached to the gear.

Hope this doesn't sound preachy. Just some friendly advice from someone who's been in a similar situation. :)
 
Steven-Marc C. said:
If you're emotionally attached to gear I would seriously advise against renting it out, unless you are working on the shoot yourself.
Click to expand...

I don't rent my equipment, but I have given it thought for the future. And I've read enough "Oh no!" threads here and everywhere else to know that I won't be renting to anyone other than those I really know and trust.
 
If you are thinking about renting something out with the prospect of making money, and reliably having a backup easily available I'd recommend investing in a well maintained used or new Red MX body - and get yourself a nice SSD side module and some SSD media :)
 
Steve Sherrick said:
You'll probably fall into the category that I'm in. I rent it out only on jobs that I'm on as DIT or operator. The rest of the time it works on my own productions. The rental days certainly helped go towards paying for it.
Click to expand...

Yah maybe you're right ... I'm a marketer by trade, so I could easily get the word out and the camera "sells itself" so rentals would be easy -- but perhaps being selective and making sure I'm there and operating the camera on any third party work. And then I definitely will have more and more work on personal projects ...


Steven-Marc C. said:
If you're emotionally attached to gear I would seriously advise against renting it out, unless you are working on the shoot yourself. It will get beaten up, there is no two ways about it. It seems to me you would be more satisfied using it yourself no matter what, so perhaps you can find ways to make that happen. If you are dedicated enough and you can find yourself some kind of niche or style of shoot to specialize in I believe you would be much happier than renting it out. There are great examples of people on this very forum who have managed to do so. Renting is purely a business, or ought to be. You cannot afford to be attached to the gear.

Hope this doesn't sound preachy. Just some friendly advice from someone who's been in a similar situation. :)
Click to expand...

Steven, thanks ... not preachy at all. I totally know what you mean about things getting beaten up -- the RedOne that one of my business partner owns (which is how I can be involved in Stage 3) ... was rented out a lot in Toronto and I'm pretty disappointed how beaten up a lot of it is. I mean, even the super heavy weight OConnor 2060 has taken some punishment and it shows.

I know gear is meant to be used, but I'm the kind of person who likes to keep my stuff in pristine condition -- use it of course -- even my Apple stuff is used every day, but still looks fairly new. I plan on keeping my Leica lens and camera in impeccable condition.

In terms of my own usage, I do have plenty of personal uses ... one project we are in the process of signing a really famous playmate, and the product will be a serious of instructional videos on teaching men how to be better succeed with women. Not anything nude :p but will involve a lot of video in both the product and marketing content. This one project alone could pay for the camera many times over, but I would be shooting/directing as a part-owner of the company and probably wouldn't take out or receive direct money for rental/shooting time. Just ownership/money on the backend sales, which could be substantial.

So again, my thought was to rent a little to defray some of the Epic costs until the project becomes profitable. But maybe only to get more experience as an operator, and not blindly to people on Craigslist, lol. I totally get what you're saying and I am taking that advice to heart. Much appreciated.
 
Last edited:
AnthonyFlores said:
Yah maybe you're right ... I'm a marketer by trade, so I could easily get the word out and the camera "sells itself" so rentals would be easy -- but perhaps being selective and making sure I'm there and operating the camera on any third party work. And then I definitely will have more and more work on personal projects ...




Steven, thanks ... not preachy at all. I totally know what you mean about things getting beaten up -- the RedOne that one of my business partner owns (which is how I can be involved in Stage 3) ... was rented out a lot in Toronto and I'm pretty disappointed how beaten up a lot of it is. I mean, even the super heavy weight OConnor 2060 has taken some punishment and it shows.

I know gear is meant to be used, but I'm the kind of person who likes to keep my stuff in pristine condition -- use it of course -- even my Apple stuff is used every day, but still looks fairly new. I plan on keeping my Leica lens and camera in impeccable condition.

In terms of my own usage, I do have plenty of personal uses ... one project we are in the process of signing a really famous playmate, and the product will be a serious of instructional videos on teaching men how to be better succeed with women. Not anything nude :p but will involve a lot of video in both the product and marketing content. This one project alone could pay for the camera many times over, but I would be shooting/directing as a part-owner of the company and probably wouldn't take out or receive direct money for rental/shooting time. Just ownership/money on the backend sales, which could be substantial.

So again, my thought was to rent a little to defray some of the Epic costs until the project becomes profitable. But maybe only to get more experience as an operator, and not blindly to people on Craigslist, lol. I totally get what you're saying and I am taking that advice to heart. Much appreciated.
Click to expand...

The way I see it, seems like the camera is an investment for your production company that will payoff when the projects you shoot with it payoff. So, in the interim just be very selective about which projects you put the camera on as a rental item. Maybe that will be enough to hold you over until the money starts rolling in from your projects.

The playmate video seems like a winner to me. I can imagine husbands saying to their wives "But honey, I need this video with the playmate because she's going to teach me how to be a better man to you". :)
 
One thing to take into consideration is the foreseeable lifespan of the equipment. When we first got the Red One, it was the best camera available, not too expensive, and it made perfect sense to keep it for our own productions. The announcement of Epic, which promised to be even better, changed the perspective. It made the Red One more "disposable" and it became more interesting to get as much out of it as possible before the Epics hit the street. This holds true for any gear. You will be very careful with your laptop or phone or whatever until you know it's going to be replaced soon.

In an ideal world, I would have an Epic and a full set of Leica Summicron C just for my personal use... until the next best thing came along... :smile:
 
Steve Sherrick said:
The way I see it, seems like the camera is an investment for your production company that will payoff when the projects you shoot with it payoff. So, in the interim just be very selective about which projects you put the camera on as a rental item. Maybe that will be enough to hold you over until the money starts rolling in from your projects.

The playmate video seems like a winner to me. I can imagine husbands saying to their wives "But honey, I need this video with the playmate because she's going to teach me how to be a better man to you". :)
Click to expand...

Lol. Yah you are right, and it's exciting because once I cross that line I can keep upgrading other aspects of my overall setup (lighting, post production, lenses) until I have more of a genuine studio. Probably what you have done, I'm guessing. Also, narrative work is awesome, but I think there's a huge untapped world of commercial/marketing work that can truly help finance many operators/owners. I can't wait to share what I do with the Red, but our first big shoot is about 60-90 days away. Thanks again Steve for the advice :)

Steven-Marc C. said:
One thing to take into consideration is the foreseeable lifespan of the equipment. When we first got the Red One, it was the best camera available, not too expensive, and it made perfect sense to keep it for our own productions. The announcement of Epic, which promised to be even better, changed the perspective. It made the Red One more "disposable" and it became more interesting to get as much out of it as possible before the Epics hit the street. This holds true for any gear. You will be very careful with your laptop or phone or whatever until you know it's going to be replaced soon.

In an ideal world, I would have an Epic and a full set of Leica Summicron C just for my personal use... until the next best thing came along...
Click to expand...

This is a very good point, especially with companies like Canon or even Apple (unfortunately) that intentionally build obsolescence into their products.

With the Epic models however, I don't think it's as much of an issue since S35 will always remain a viable format ... and 5k resolution is still way ahead of everyone, especially considering 4k isn't the standard (yet). I still seeing it being the "it" camera for a while ... and even when the FF version is released and does 6k or whatever, there are limitations on lens choices and you'll still have to probably finish in the same final resolution. Because it probably will be a while before most companies/productions need 6k, 8k, or more resolution ... I believe these coming Epics will have a fairly healthy lifespan, and could be very similar to what we've seen with the Red One .... IMHO.

Ahhh yes, the Leica Summilux C's ... drool ... still waiting to see a test or some footage shot with them -- maybe Otto Nemenz can send Mark mark a set to play with for a week, so we can see how they look on the Epic. Otherwise we will just have to wait for Ketch to receive his :p
 
AnthonyFlores said:
Ahhh yes, the Leica Summilux C's ... drool ... still waiting to see a test or some footage shot with them -- maybe Otto Nemenz can send Mark mark a set to play with for a week, so we can see how they look on the Epic. Otherwise we will just have to wait for Ketch to receive his :p
Click to expand...

Leica21mm-C_on_Epic.jpg



I would love to be able to buy a single lens instead of a set.
 
Curran Giddens said:
Leica21mm-C_on_Epic.jpg



I would love to be able to buy a single lens instead of a set.
Click to expand...

Yah Curran, still amazed that Leica made a set that's the same size ... 1.4 across all focal lengths ... smaller than most high-end cine primes ... just amazing. But I haven't seen a thing about their release, so eagerly awaiting impressions on them -- even if they're out of my budget right now.
 
This thread got very legal and philosophical.

Me, I hope to add $500 to what my R1 packages rent for - in the beginning. Then when there are many Epics I hope to retain +$300. I also think the costly SSDs will also raise the rentals income...

The old adage is 100 rentals to pay it off. I like 30- 50 better :)

Seeing how I am not talking actual prices, I think my attorney will give me the green light ;)

Prost,
Rich
 
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