Large Format Depth of Field

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

I have been so happy with my Monstro since I tested Jarred's with Phil a long time ago. It is so smooth and I love the skin tones. I also love that I can hold a VistaVision camera in the palm of my hand.

All my testing was models on chairs and beautiful aerials and vistas. Then awhile ago I went to Paramount to shoot a scene from the upcoming Spongebob film. On stage, western saloon set.

I shot on the Sigma Cinema primes because I might buy them. What I found all of a sudden when I was shooting actors and dialogue and moving camera was that I had to adjust to the reduced Depth of Field. I was lighting to a T/4 and still I had to tell the director that I couldn't hold splits. All those decades understanding DOF with 35mm and Super 35 and we mentally get used to knowing what kind of split we can expect with a T/2.8-4 or a T/2. Now we really have to re-assess. Not that this is a bad thing but it is interesting.

Also the lack of zooms (which is fine with me) will make many TV directors go insane.

And if you are planning on shooting actors at a T/1.5 in a room then you will be figuring some stuff out. My AC here in Vancouver just wrapped a Netflix film on Alexa 65. He has some strong opinions.

Let me be clear I am excited about Large Format but it is not so simple.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Oh that's interesting... You may need more lights for VV jobs just to maintain the focus/DOF that the script calls for. Oh the irony....

 

[Nick Morrison]

I have been so happy with my Monstro since I tested Jarred's with Phil a long time ago. It is so smooth and I love the skin tones. I also love that I can hold a VistaVision camera in the palm of my hand.

All my testing was models on chairs and beautiful aerials and vistas. Then awhile ago I went to Paramount to shoot a scene from the upcoming Spongebob film. On stage, western saloon set.

I shot on the Sigma Cinema primes because I might buy them. What I found all of a sudden when I was shooting actors and dialogue and moving camera was that I had to adjust to the reduced Depth of Field. I was lighting to a T/4 and still I had to tell the director that I couldn't hold splits. All those decades understanding DOF with 35mm and Super 35 and we mentally get used to knowing what kind of split we can expect with a T/2.8-4 or a T/2. Now we really have to re-assess. Not that this is a bad thing but it is interesting.

Also the lack of zooms (which is fine with me) will make many TV directors go insane.

And if you are planning on shooting actors at a T/1.5 in a room then you will be figuring some stuff out. My AC here in Vancouver just wrapped a Netflix film on Alexa 65. He has some strong opinions.

Let me be clear I am excited about Large Format but it is not so simple.

Interested to hear your thoughts.

BTW - the Zeiss Zooms look interesting, as they cover a nice range. But true there aren't too many other options out there...yet.

 

[Daniel Stilling]

That's why I think that super 35 (ish) is not going anywhere anytime soon. Shure, having one eye in focus while the other is soft can have its moments, i think that overall super 35 is a more "all rounder" camera you can take anywhere and get great results.
I love the fact that I can use The modern-vintage looking Angie Styles, keep it at 2.8 and have a good balance of shallow and focusable that won't drive my AC's to the bar after a day of shooting...

 

[Phil Holland]

Agree that zoom-wise more options would be nice. At the moment nothing is touching the Zeiss CZ series which are pretty much the only zooms I use when I do use zooms on VV. There's more zoomy stuff coming though, just will take a hot minute.

Prime-wise, we have a host of decent options at this point. Some more ideal that others. Oddly even with all the glass I have I'm bouncing around between the Tokina Vistas, Sigma Cine, and Zeiss Otus for much of my VV filming.

Most of my filming in the last 3 years on VV has been mainly in the realm of T1.5-T5. Sometimes I'll go deeper when needed, but really just depends on what I'm doing. I don't have much of an issue shooting at T1.5, but I do make judicious use of the in camera focus tools. On a twofer or OTS if I'm looking to grab two subjects or to the back of head a deeper stop helps, but not crazy deeper.

It's really about a 1 and 2/3rd stop difference between S35 and VV to match DOF which alludes to the strengths, aesthetic, and practical working differences between the formats.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I love my monstro as well. Would not trade it for any other camera, color rendition and everything that comes with it. But sure larger format is simply a tradeoff for speed. To create the same image as you would with a s35 camera you simply need to be on a longer lens at higher appature.
And for those that want to shoot wide open there is simply options for S35 that gives the same image and brings more light to the sensor compared to whats physically avaialble for monstro sized sensors.
However croping down to 6k to use those s35 lenses on monsto is a viable option as well. As even at 6k, to me, monstro outshines all other options. Shoting 6k with monstro gives a higher bitrate per pixel or alow higher frame rates per sensor area then helium 8k.
Then also the loss of exposure that comes with the size of the sensor to create the same DOF as s35 is compensated quite well with the extra latitude in the low end that Monstro provides.

For me it took me some time to wrap my head around what monstro bring to the table. Now after a year of using it I still get pussled. Shot something a few weeks back that we where going to be using for stills... Looked at my footage on the touch screen and told the client we needed to check so it ws not to soft, I was using a very wide sigma prime quite open and it looked a bit soft on the screen, also looked a bit soft in resolve on my laptop which was set to scale down half res stuff... rendered out a frame. Bam, shit was like glas cut with a knife, razor sharp and clean as a wizzle. So yes, Sigmas and Monstro is not a shitty combo, and if focusing get difficult go 6k and swing a wider lens, image will hold up no problem.


A001_C034_07095Z_001.016194212 by Björn Benckert, on Flickr

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I' happy to have choosen the Speedbooster for DSMC2 as it gives me the FoV and Dof of FF lenses with one stop more light on the S35mm 6k Dragon sensor.
So I can choose to close the lens 1 stop or have that shallow depht of field with one 0.3 ND more.
Now let's see how it holds on real life shoot when I get it! ;-)

I think the difference between FF/VV and S35 and how focus has to be precise is the end resolution you want to use (like allways using the right CoC). I've seen a lot of real 4k pictures on big screens that aren't in focus. Wich wouldn't have been an issue on a 2k screen. We have been shooting Canon 5D FF since 2008 and dindn't feel that focus was a huge problem because the end resolution was only HD. Real 4k-8k capture and projection needs another CoC. A real challenge for AC used to shoot for 2k. So I think it's a combination about the format and the displayed resolution.


Patrick

 

[Björn Benckert]

I' happy to have choosen the Speedbooster for DSMC2 as it gives me the FoV and Dof of FF lenses with one stop more light on the S35mm 6k Dragon sensor.
So I can choose to close the lens 1 stop or have that shallow depht of field with one 0.3 ND more.
Now let's see how it holds on real life shoot when I get it! ;-)

I think the difference between FF/VV and S35 and how focus has to be precise is the end resolution you want to use (like allways using the right CoC). I've seen a lot of real 4k pictures on big screens that aren't in focus. Wich wouldn't have been an issue on a 2k screen. We have been shooting Canon 5D FF since 2008 and dindn't feel that focus was a huge problem because the end resolution was only HD. Real 4k-8k capture and projection needs another CoC. A real challenge for AC used to shoot for 2k. So I think it's a combination about the format and the displayed resolution.


Patrick

That probably works well, but not as well as the same speed booster infront of monstro at 6k. Its simply a different beast.

 

[Misha Engel]

From the Abt website: The SpeedMount EF for DSMC2 cameras reduces the full frame (43.3mm) image circle to S35 format while speeding up the lens for nearly one f-stop.

The new image circle becomes 43.3/sqrt2=30.62 mm

From PHFX.com
Monstro:

5.5K WS 5632x2376 2.37:1 109.92 28.16x11.88mm 30.56mm
5.5K HD 5376x3024 1.78:1 86.51 26.88x15.12mm 30.84mm vignetting
5K HD 4800x2700 1.78:1 96.39 24.00x13.50mm 27.54mm

Helium:

7.5K WS 7680x3240 2.37:1 80.57 28.03x11.83mm 30.42mm
7.5K HD 7296x4104 1.78:1 63.72 26.63x14.98mm 30.55mm

Just numbers and it doesn't say anything about the image quality, just interpret it the way you want.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Let's also remember that digital sensors are less tolerant with regards to focus accuracy. A tiny bit of inaccuracy on a film camera will not be visible, as the film surface has, relatively speaking, a wide depth of focus. But with digital sensors, you pretty much must be spot on, especially with fast lenses. With moderate apertures you can be a touch off and you'll be fine, and that is more true as focal length shortens.

AFAIK, the Leica M8 and M9 needed more frequent RF adjustment than the film bodies. I think they had to develop a new mechanism after the M9 that had to be more precise and consistent than ever before. Don't quote me on this, though.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Let's also remember that digital sensors are less tolerant with regards to focus accuracy. A tiny bit of inaccuracy on a film camera will not be visible, as the film surface has, relatively speaking, a wide depth of focus. But with digital sensors, you pretty much must be spot on, especially with fast lenses. With moderate apertures you can be a touch off and you'll be fine, and that is more true as focal length shortens.

AFAIK, the Leica M8 and M9 needed more frequent RF adjustment than the film bodies. I think they had to develop a new mechanism after the M9 that had to be more precise and consistent than ever before. Don't quote me on this, though.

I don't think they are less tolerant, it depends on the aquisition resolution and final delivery specs....

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Crazy Talk

Crazy Talk

Peter,

Its a dilemma that the reduced DOF on full frame sensors is both your friend and enemy. For me the reduced DOFs advantage lies only with the wide lenses. I love the the focus separation in shots with wide FOVs that are not possible on smaller formats. This effect for me is VV most compelling advantage.

For my next drama project I am seriously considering a two prong approach. With exterior shots I might shoot the 24mm lens at F2, the 35mm F2.8, 50mm F4, 85mm F5.6 and the 135mm F8. This approach would help slow the decreasing DOF as lenses go longer. With VV I find the longer lenses narrow DOF can make backgrounds too mushy so the deeper stops counteract this. I have purchased the Kippertie Revolva ND system so ND changes can be done at the flick off a finger. With interiors I am considering the possibility of varying sensor size instead. Shoot 8K for the 24mm, 7K for the 35mm and 6K 50mm and possibly even 5K for 85mm and up. (These settings are more an example and could be configured to your own taste and needs.) I have manipulated DOF using the sensor size before and editorial sees nothing different as the proxy files are all 2K and only the colourist would see the different size R3Ds at the final compile/grade but as Resolve automatically resizes all these on its timeline I swear I have sat in on grades and nobody notices the pixel size changes. There are some gotchas and a heavy VFX production would probably not suit or if you were deliberately underexposing for a look you would see some grain size shifts. I know Post would be resitant to something different but they might like the idea of a lightened data load.

Personally I have never liked that the wide shots have infinite focus and then the editor cuts to the 100mm close up and the world is blurry and unrecognisable. I understand that this is a well understood visual convention but I prefer a more even spread of DOF. I also understand that this is not an easy thing to do with a one man band shooting the impossible schedule but for any drama set up with internal NDs and sensor size assigned to a button push this is easily doable.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Having been shooting on Monstro VV since January, all I can say is that I’m smitten with it and don’t know how I could ever go back to S35. Then again, I come from a photography background more than cinema/video and had been dabbling with medium format for some time before my first RED One camera. S35 and similar always felt cramped or overly restrictive to me. My style and preferences tend toward shorter focal lengths. And in order to get some of the wider angles I wanted, I was always fighting distortions and too much DOF on the combo of smaller sensor/ shorter focal length we had on past S35 cameras. That probably seems odd to those coming from the other direction of miniDV video, and digital still cameras with S35-ish APS-C/ DX/ whatever “crop frame” sizing. I had my smaller sensor camcorders as well, but always loathed them, yet made them work. I think they were not as big of a deal to me because all the ones I owned had fixed lenses and I just knew what I had to work with. Made the mistake of buying a wide-angle adapter for my DVX100. Ugh... the barrel distortion and light loss just wasn’t worth it. Got into some of the 35mm lens adapters for a while and built a couple myself, but that wasn’t ideal and the community surrounding them was annoying because all anyone would talk about or care about was shallow DOF.

I think the only thing that could be better at this point is if RED offered that Monstro 645 camera they teased like 8 years ago. I would love to see a medium format RED camera. And I’m talking real 6x4.5 size or 65mm 12-perf, even 70mm 15-perf full IMAX size. Somewhere in there. That’s always been a real point of frustration for me with the “medium format” digital backs is they have only been, until very recently, slightly larger than 35FF.

Of course, those larger formats present much greater challenges for focusing and managing lens sizes. Larger data, etc... Not to mention the cost of that sensor / camera system to drive it. And yet, I think for me, a camera like that could be an incredible creative tool. Wrangling that beast on a demanding set for a feature wouldn’t be high on my list of fun things to do, but that’s a whole different deal than what I’m doing most of the time.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I think the only thing that could be better at this point is if RED offered that Monstro 645 camera they teased like 8 years ago.

Probably not for the masses, but RED also did the Gemini project wich was at the beginning for a couple of NASA cameras. So who knows... Jeff you probably will have a 645 RED camera in your hand one day ;-)
Let's call it the "Kilgroe" project ;-)

Pat

 

[Jon Dishler]

The crop between Helium or Gemini to FF film is 1.17 to 1.2, which is much closer than a Super35 type 1.5 crop. I find it a nice balance between the two for video. I know Monstro is even bigger but as a full frame still shooter, I do not find it much of a compromise.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Jeff, I think your approach is a brilliant one. I also think that I am excited about Monstro for wide angle. I also think I can come up with a way to make this all work so I can use Monstro and also not make the director crazy with such limited splits.
I also want to say that camera assistants for dramatic work are even more important.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

My esteemed best friend John Schwartzman has shot 2 features on DXL2 (Monstro) so I might have him chime in about how he dealt with all this

 

[Misha Engel]

Jeff, I think your approach is a brilliant one. I also think that I am excited about Monstro for wide angle. I also think I can come up with a way to make this all work so I can use Monstro and also not make the director crazy with such limited splits.
I also want to say that camera assistants for dramatic work are even more important.

You can always try a HASSELBLAD to RED cameras adapter with speed-booster which allows to use Zeiss/Hasselblad medium format lenses on all RED DSMC/DSMC2 cameras including the Monstro or the same for PENTAX 645 to RED, they are less than a $ 1.000, so not that expensive. It's a bit medium format on the cheap, lots of still photographers use it on A7's.
Or get a faster lens with a different length to get the equivalent DoF.

 

[David J. Buchanan]

For narrative pieces, there's nothing quite like FF35. This Vista Vision sensor feels like a dream (admittedly have yet to REALLY use it). It may seem like a pain now, but as it becomes more popular it'll really sing.

 

[Mike P.]

What stands out most to me in this post is that you’re up here in Vancouver and we haven’t gone for a drink. :lol: