Large Format Depth of Field

[Björn Benckert]

I don't think they are less tolerant, it depends on the aquisition resolution and final delivery specs....

This is correct, film was never really that sharp.

 

[Björn Benckert]

For narrative pieces, there's nothing quite like FF35. This Vista Vision sensor feels like a dream (admittedly have yet to REALLY use it). It may seem like a pain now, but as it becomes more popular it'll really sing.

Monstro is super nice. Only thing to think of is you need a different Fstop / lens to mimic what you did with your S35 camera. And even if you need to close down quite a bit to get there it´s not really like you need more light as monstros DR is quite spectacular in the low end and the clean 8k it provides. So as I see it you can adjust the fstop to reach the same DOF without adding light.

 

[Misha Engel]

When you have "let's say a tokina VV 25 and 50 mm" lenses and a monstro you can easily test the different FoV and DoV.

Monstro set to 8k FF, 50 mm lens set to f4(Aperture diameter 50/4=12.5 mm), down-scaled to 2k output should give you more or less the same output as the
Monstro(at the same position) set to 4k FF, 25 mm lens set to f2(Aperture diameter 25/2=12.5 mm), down-scaled to 2k output.

The down scale to 2k, is to cancel out the de-bayer advantage of the 8k over the 4k.

No magic, nothing special, nothing to do with large format.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Oh boy here we go

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

When you have "let's say a tokina VV 25 and 50 mm" lenses and a monstro you can easily test the different FoV and DoV.

Monstro set to 8k FF, 50 mm lens set to f4(Aperture diameter 50/4=12.5 mm), down-scaled to 2k output should give you more or less the same output as the
Monstro(at the same position) set to 4k FF, 25 mm lens set to f2(Aperture diameter 25/2=12.5 mm), down-scaled to 2k output.

The down scale to 2k, is to cancel out the de-bayer advantage of the 8k over the 4k.

No magic, nothing special, nothing to do with large format.

Misha, let me relay to you a great advice from a great artist:
"It ain't no point talking when no one is listening" ;-)

 

[Misha Engel]

Misha, let me relay to you a great advice from a great artist:
"It ain't no point talking when no one is listening" ;-)

Maybe, I just don't want to walk with a Hubble telescoop on my shoulder, when all the normal sized camera's are phased out because of the next big hype.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Please leave that old old discussion about the sensor size doesn't' affect FOV/DOF to another thread.

It really wears me down.

Let's all go shoot some features. And Mike P. I'm living in Yaletown so a drink on me!

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

FWIW, there are a few strategies that should help in many scenes.

1) Wide angle lenses with excellent geometry. Side note: be critical of center to edge differences in resolving power, light transmission and corner distortion. The goal is to keep the camera closer to the action and get similar framing to a longer lens on S35. To me, it feels like putting the viewer a step deeper into the action and more closely mimics human peripheral vision. Its one of the things I really dig about the larger format.

2) Thanks to technology, we can now generate a ton of lumens with less power consumption and heat than ever before. Yes, I know the light quality of LEDs earned its bad rap - but now that we have ARRI SkyPanels, remote phosphor tech like the BB&S Area48 Softs, Quasar tubes, Astras, etc... If you can get to a 4/5.6 with the same power draw and number of instruments as you used to need to get 2.8/4...

3) Test the S/N ratio and chroma purity when underexposed to see what you can get by with.

Ultimately, I hope to see large format - with its personality intact - become the new "normal". If the audience expects fewer of the objects in frame to be sharp all the time, but knows the key bits will be sharp, I think they'll get used to it quickly. If not, you can all use this post 10 years from now to tease me mercilessly ;-)

Cheers - #19

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Yes you are so right Blair. If you look at films like West Side Story and Sound of Music shot on 65mm you see great things. They shot at around a T/5.6 according to the DPs interviews. That is very different from trying to shoot on VV at a T/1.5.

Some of those old 65mm epics are my favorites but really had deep stops

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

The goal is to keep the camera closer to the action and get similar framing to a longer lens on S35. To me, it feels like putting the viewer a step deeper into the action and more closely mimics human peripheral vision. Its one of the things I really dig about the larger format.

Out of respect for Peter I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

Some of those old 65mm epics are my favorites but really had deep stops

On Citizen Kane they went as far as f/16, as you are probably aware. Though I do wonder if anyone under 30, who is practicing the photographic arts, has actually seen it. The longest focal length IIRC on that film was 50mm. So T5.6 on 65mm is nothing compared to that! I wish I could say that I was familiar with more of those 65mm productions, but apart from 2001, I don't think I've seen any. I should remedy that.

Shooting Monstro with a stopped down lens ought to be easy in Current Year. If they can do it in 1941, you can surely do it today.

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Everyone who cares at all about film should see Citizen Kane!

 

[Misha Engel]

When "creatives" tell stories about tech stuff(DoF, FoV, etc...) or tech guys like me start making creative stories to capture on film, you get bullshit stories.
When both stick to their talents and work together the chances to be succesful rise.

Only the lucky few have both talents.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Yes you are so right Blair. If you look at films like West Side Story and Sound of Music shot on 65mm you see great things. They shot at around a T/5.6 according to the DPs interviews. That is very different from trying to shoot on VV at a T/1.5.

Some of those old 65mm epics are my favorites but really had deep stops

Not sure exact what format they shot Citizen Cane on. But 65mm are not much different from monstro. Actual frame size of 65mm is 43mm wide where as monstro is 41.6mm.

"The goal is to keep the camera closer to the action and get similar framing to a longer lens on S35. To me, it feels like putting the viewer a step deeper into the action and more closely mimics human peripheral vision. Its one of the things I really dig about the larger format."

The quote above I leave without comment as my reply would for sure worn Peter down.

 

[Phil Holland]

Not sure exact what format they shot Citizen Cane on. But 65mm are not much different from monstro. Actual frame size of 65mm is 43mm wide where as monstro is 41.6mm.

Peter is referring to West Side Story and Sound of Music which were shot on 65mm 5-perf motion picture film, not the Alexa 65 in 1.78:1 mode

So you're dealing with an image plane that is 52.63mm wide with 65mm 5-perf versus the 42.24mm wide Alexa 65mm in 1.78:1.

I guess with remakes and all these formats it's pretty easy to get confused!

 

[Peter Lyons Collister ASC]

Thanks for clarifying Phil.....

I would enjoy testing shooting a dramatic scene with many actors and tough blocking on Monstro at T/1.5. I am sure one of you could do a great job. I would need a great focus puller and a director who understands....

Does anyone know what stop Chris Nolan shoots his IMAX films at?

 

[Misha Engel]

Peter is referring to West Side Story and Sound of Music which were shot on 65mm 5-perf motion picture film, not the Alexa 65 in 1.78:1 mode

So you're dealing with an image plane that is 52.63mm wide with 65mm 5-perf versus the 42.24mm wide Alexa 65mm in 1.78:1.

I guess with remakes and all these formats it's pretty easy to get confused!

Huh???


Shooting Format = ARRI Alexa 65 Alev III - Open Gate
Format Size = 54.12x25.58mm (59.86mm image circle)

Relative Format = Kodak Film - 65mm 5-Perf
Format Size = 52.63x23.01mm (57.44mm image circle)

And as explained and shown by Yedlin....

https://shotonwhat.com/the-sound-of-music-1965

 

[Misha Engel]

Thanks for clarifying Phil.....

I would enjoy testing shooting a dramatic scene with many actors and tough blocking on Monstro at T/1.5. I am sure one of you could do a great job. I would need a great focus puller and a director who understands....

Does anyone know what stop Chris Nolan shoots his IMAX films at?

He shot dunkirk for a great deal on Sphero 65 lenses and the fastest ones are T2.0(50,75,100) the rest is T2.8.
Monstro with T1.5 got you covered for the same look (DoV, FoV).

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks for clarifying Phil.....

I would enjoy testing shooting a dramatic scene with many actors and tough blocking on Monstro at T/1.5. I am sure one of you could do a great job. I would need a great focus puller and a director who understands....

Does anyone know what stop Chris Nolan shoots his IMAX films at?

Wally shot a great deal of the large format stuff between T4 and T5.6, night scenes were in the T2-2.8 mostly, but that was sort of unspecified.

They used Hassy, Mamiya, and some custom PV stuff in mostly in the T2.8 range with a couple special T2 and T2.5 lenses.

I'm not Pfister nor anywhere close, but interiors have been landing between T4-T5.6 for me as well on VV with a few people in frame. Those aren't really impossible stops to light for, but for DPs who have chatted up VV with me over the last little while it is a different flavor of ice cream for a lot of them who have been working the T2.8/4 split world for a while.

My general rule of thumb if somebody has a exposure logic/DOF feel for how they shoot is stop down about 1.6 stops on VV to maintain the general DOF look and feel if you are used to working S35 at specific stops.

Dunkirk was a different beast and Hoyte was working with 65mm 5-perf and 70mm 15-perf mostly with T2 and 2.8 glass. If I recall correctly there's stuff they did outside as stopped down as T8 or further. Don't know what they shot the interiors at, but I'm guessing between T4 and T8.


The more juicy conversation for me is focal length selection on large format for those shots and how you want your VV footage to feel similar or not to S35, that's been the fun stuff to tinker with. The sort of normal if you like 35mm as a normal on S35, 50mm-ish will likely do you well on VV. But the question there is also what you might do differently in some situations as well.

Huh???

Shooting Format = ARRI Alexa 65 Alev III - Open Gate
Format Size = 54.12x25.58mm (59.86mm image circle)

Relative Format = Kodak Film - 65mm 5-Perf
Format Size = 52.63x23.01mm (57.44mm image circle)

And as explained and shown by Yedlin....

Misha, I don't know what Bjorn was referencing, but when he stated 43mm the closest thing I could think of was how people "usually" work with the Alexa 65, which is in the 5K mode of 1.78:1. The Open Gate aspect ratio is nice for cinema 2.39:1 or similar, but a lot of wasted space otherwise for 1.85:1 and 16x9. Much like why you won't necessarily work at 8K FF if you know you are going to a 2.39:1 release, some would shoot at WS or 2:1 to have room to reframe if desired. Just saves a wee bit of data in the long run. Though I find most just shoot FF a lot and use framing guides. Lots of ways to work in 2018.

Examples:
Alexa 65 Open Gate versus 1.78:1

Alexa 65 at 1.78:1 compared to Monstro 8K VV

 

[Misha Engel]

Wally shot a great deal of the large format stuff between T4 and T5.6, night scenes were in the T2-2.8 mostly, but that was sort of unspecified.

They used Hassy, Mamiya, and some custom PV stuff in mostly in the T2.8 range with a couple special T2 and T2.5 lenses.

I'm not Pfister nor anywhere close, but interiors have been landing between T4-T5.6 for me as well on VV with a few people in frame. Those aren't really impossible stops to light for, but for DPs who have chatted up VV with me over the last little while it is a different flavor of ice cream for a lot of them who have been working the T2.8/4 split world for a while.

My general rule of thumb if somebody has a exposure logic/DOF feel for how they shoot is stop down about 1.6 stops on VV to maintain the general DOF look and feel if you are used to working S35 at specific stops.

Dunkirk was a different beast and Hoyte was working with 65mm 5-perf and 70mm 15-perf mostly with T2 and 2.8 glass. If I recall correctly there's stuff they did outside as stopped down as T8 or further. Don't know what they shot the interiors at, but I'm guessing between T4 and T8.


The more juicy conversation for me is focal length selection on large format for those shots and how you want your VV footage to feel similar or not to S35, that's been the fun stuff to tinker with. The sort of normal if you like 35mm as a normal on S35, 50mm-ish will likely do you well on VV. But the question there is also what you might do differently in some situations as well.




Misha, I don't know what Bjorn was referencing, but when he stated 43mm the closest thing I could think of was how people "usually" work with the Alexa 65, which is in the 5K mode of 1.78:1. The Open Gate aspect ratio is nice for cinema 2.39:1 or similar, but a lot of wasted space otherwise for 1.85:1 and 16x9. Much like why you won't necessarily work at 8K FF if you know you are going to a 2.39:1 release, some would shoot at WS or 2:1 to have room to reframe if desired. Just saves a wee bit of data in the long run. Though I find most just shoot FF a lot and use framing guides. Lots of ways to work in 2018.

Examples:
Alexa 65 Open Gate versus 1.78:1

Alexa 65 at 1.78:1 compared to Monstro 8K VV

I must be one of those guys who likes some room for error (16bit color, FF, lowest compression, etc..) storage space is so cheap these days compared to renting an Alexa 65.

 

[PatrickFaith]

I was thinking of going to the 50 year anniversay of "2001 Space Odyssey" at imax, anything I should watch for? Working with monstro I have just started to notice the "feel" in 2001 on a bunch of shots, especially where thier is a very tight focus on peoples eye reflections. The film transitioning between large and shallow depth of field to tell the story, is another thing I've been pondering.