KOMODO....

[Jiri Vrozina]

Definitely. BM images have always looked thin to me.

Nonsense.
I am not BM buyer but their images look organic. I am yet to see great images from Komodo. Thick? Who came up with that Joke slogan? I can not wait for Christmas when everyday users will get Komodo to give it serious tests. Not that we all need a new cameras if this World continues in this crazy path.

 

[Adam D. Ouellette]

has anyone confirmed if KOMODO can do 4k 60p using the full, uncropped S35 sensor?

super curious about that, saw some articles stating this online but no "confirmed" info that I can find yet.

EDIT: found this on Cinema5D, which is what I was referencing above

6k full sensor @ up to 40fps
6K wide (2.4:1) @ up to 48fps
5k full sensor @ up to 48fps
4k full sensor @ up to 60fps
2k full sensor @ up to 120fps

link: https://www.cinema5d.com/red-komodo-update-cameras-shipped-footage-samples/

Its cropped I believe.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Lol. I agree. I spent a lot of time with 400A's and D600's on my shoulder in the late 90's/early 00's. The BMD camera's just seem so consumerish in their design. Kinda like what Vitec did about five years ago(Vitec was worse, though. It all looked like Fisher-Price). I've laid my hands on one, and they are solid. WAY more than I imagined just looking at it, but they still look like they were designed by someone who had never actually touched a real camera, just looked at pictures and tried to translate it to a much less expensive consumer version. I mean, why is the ND turret knob so small and skinny? And the VF looks like it would snap the first time you grabbed it and made an adjustment in a hurry.

THE BVW300/400 was probably the most ergonomic shoulder camera ever (comparing cameras of equal weight) and it was a nice visual design. But a big part was the fact that you had a big lens and a long camera due to the tape deck to balance things in front of and behind the shoulder.

You guys are getting a little nitpicky on the URSA (how is substantial metal skeleton and metal (betacamlike) switches consumerish?) - especially on this forum when you consider the REDONE, DSMC1 and DSMC2 which had little to crow about in either style or ergonomic function.

I have the URSA Broadcast which is the exact body style of the 12k. One of the things I really like about it is that it does have buttons, switches and knobs (plus xlrs) just like my old BVW300A (same body as BVW400). I understand the rationale for the red buttonless approach but it is still annoying to someone that has experienced the value of all those buttons and switches. (Handles and sidekick were ok but never quite fully satisfactory for shooting by yourself.)

The Ursa doesn't balance as well on your shoulder due to the shorter length but it is definitely workable and much better than REDONE, DSMC1 and DSMC2 with any rig I have ever seen.

Buttons, switches and knobs on the URSA all seem pretty robust. (A lot of u/w users have found RED buttons maybe a little less so.)

Nothing here is meant to disparage Komodo or over compliment the URSA, but it sometimes a little annoying here to see the kind of unwarranted shots taken at BMD. Have they had their issues? - certainly - as have some other companies that delivered their first camera less than a dozen or so years ago :wink5:

Give props where props are due. Red has created what looks to be the first global shutter, cinema grade camera that gives quality images on a par with the very top cameras in the world - and in an ultracompact configuration.

BMD seems to have a lot of the corporate history and culture that we liked about RED in the beginning too: RED: founder started out making bicycle hand grips and developed that business in to a multibillion dollar company, then turned his passion for cameras into a game changing, price disrupting cine camera business. BMD: guy working at a Post house designs and markets a cheap capture card and builds it to a broadly diversified video manufacturer and along the way saving and improving some of the great production tools - Resolve, Fairlight, Teranex, ATEM switchers, etc. And now they have developed some hardware and software tech that may prove to be a genuine jump forward - time will tell.

 

[Andy Roberts]

has anyone confirmed if KOMODO can do 4k 60p using the full, uncropped S35 sensor?

The very nature of Redcode RAW means that you are not going to get FULL SENSOR at different sizes, because then it is no longer RAW. As the frame size goes down and the frame rate goes up, that is possible because it is using a more and more cropped portion of the sensor. It has always been that way with Red RAW.

These tools from Phil Holland are VERY helpful. This is showing that the crop factor from full frame 6K Komodo to 4K Komodo is 1.5x. And the crop factor of Komodo at 6K compared to what most consider FULL FRAME is 1.33x. And Komodo 4K to Full Frame (Kodak Film FF35 Still 3:2) is 2.0x.

http://phfx.com/tools/formatCompare...&modelB=Komodo+6K&formatB=6K+FF&focalLengths=

You MAY be able to get a full sensor 4K in ProRes (not Redcode RAW) but I do not think it is possible to get higher frame rates still... COULD be wrong about the frame rate issue but I don't think so.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Nonsense.
I am not BM buyer but their images look organic. I am yet to see great images from Komodo. Thick? Who came up with that Joke slogan? I can not wait for Christmas when everyday users will get Komodo to give it serious tests. Not that we all need a new cameras if this World continues in this crazy path.

Well, I don't know what qualifies to you as great but our very own Tim Daust has shot to video pretty great looking (IMO) which are worth looking at since it is the same kind of shots that BM showed on their camera announcement.

As for the BM12K camera (and the 4.6K G2 for that matter) it is a great tech achievement and will produce lovely images (I don't like their Pocket line but I've always liked what the URSA line can produce). But it seems that (according to some other who are whay better at maths than me even if I have a pretty good understanding of how a stripped RGB array work) the real achievement is not the "12K" but the fact that when accounting for all the filtration and stuff the sensor has the same resolving power of the 4.6K BUT (and it's a HUGE BUT, no pun intended) the magic happens in the software (BRAW) so that with all he information the filter array can get it can produce a 12K file no problem and it can produce 8K and 4K as well (nowhere in the specs it says it's oversampled in-camera so it seems it's a process like pixel binning without the drawbacks thanks to the combo filter array + BRAW processing).
That's anyway a summary of the few guesses gathered in the discussion over at the Cinematography Mailing List.

 

[David Rasberry]

Thick, as in the "feel" of the image. I think RED cameras have had this feel ever since RED One. Besides the colour science I believe that RED cameras also don't have any electronic sharpening of the image and that this is one of the factors behind the "thick feel".

Could come down to what percentage of the active sensor surface is actually light sensitive. The larger the border grid between pixels is, the less dense the captured image is. With CMOS where much of the on chip electronics reside in the border, the active pixel area is typically around 80% or so. That combined with the lack of a proper OLPF which effectively blurs the borders could explain most of it.

 

[Nick Korompilas]

Thanks @ Adam, Andy and Andrew.

Here is the link I am referencing
Link: PHFX - 6K HD to 4K HD

I am mostly interested in crop factor difference between 6K HD to 4K HD. I really hoped that we would be offered a downsample to 4K without an additional crop from S35. It looks like going to 4K bumps the 1.33x to a 2x crop factor, same as M43.

Is this correct to assume with the knowledge we have so far then?

6k @ up to 40fps uses a 1.33x crop factor
4k @ up to 60fps uses a 2x crop factor (1.33x standard + 0.67x additional)

Man, if that's the case, it makes it really hard to justify KOMODO for me. 48fps & 60fps are some of my most used frame rates. I don't mind S35 crop factor at all, but cropping in further for 60fps is hard to justify in this day and age. I've seen some clean images from KOMODO even at 2K, but really the way it affects my lens lineup and DOF abilities is what would bum me out. I really wish we could get a clear answer on this

 

[Christian Jadot]

Thanks @ Adam, Andy and Andrew.

Here is the link I am referencing
Link: PHFX - 6K HD to 4K HD

I am mostly interested in crop factor difference between 6K HD to 4K HD. I really hoped that we would be offered a downsample to 4K without an additional crop from S35. It looks like going to 4K bumps the 1.33x to a 2x crop factor, same as M43.

Is this correct to assume with the knowledge we have so far then?

6k @ up to 40fps uses a 1.33x crop factor
4k @ up to 60fps uses a 2x crop factor (1.33x standard + 0.67x additional)

Man, if that's the case, it makes it really hard to justify KOMODO for me. 48fps & 60fps are some of my most used frame rates. I don't mind S35 crop factor at all, but cropping in further for 60fps is hard to justify in this day and age. I've seen some clean images from KOMODO even at 2K, but really the way it affects my lens lineup and DOF abilities is what would bum me out. I really wish we could get a clear answer on this

Do you mind the 2.4:1 ratio?

Komodo does do 6K 2.4:1 @ 48 fps.

In all honesty the frame rate is very similar to the RED Scarlet Dragon DSMC1. (With the exception of 6k.)

For myself, I am going to pretty much leave it in 2.4:1, I prefer the aspect ratio and the added benefits that come with it. (Lower data and higher frame rates.) But I fall into the serious hobbyist category . (With my own equipment anyways.)

 

[Andy Roberts]

Man, if that's the case, it makes it really hard to justify KOMODO for me. 48fps & 60fps are some of my most used frame rates. I don't mind S35 crop factor at all, but cropping in further for 60fps is hard to justify in this day and age. I've seen some clean images from KOMODO even at 2K, but really the way it affects my lens lineup and DOF abilities is what would bum me out. I really wish we could get a clear answer on this

Nick, I can't give you a definitive answer. But I do know that Komodo's price tag and feature set requires giving something up. And frame rates is the notable compromise. But 97%+ of what I shoot is 24FPS. SO to get all the benefits of Red RAW, plus global shutter, plus a maturing auto-focus using RF lenses... Komodo ticks all my boxes. If I want to over crank some, there is the 48FPS at 6K 2.4:1. If I truly need more than that, I'd rent or use Resolve AI-based time remapping. To get Red RAW and higher FPS means stepping into a system that is 3x or 4x more in price, which I can't justify.

So you'll just need to nail down what your must haves are. There are a lot of great choices these days that ALL can produce great imagery.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I would really want a firmware update to enable 5K at 50 fps. It's the sweetspot for PAL and if HDRx is ever enabled it would require 50 fps for a 25 fps output. But outside of that we can't do slow motion in some lighting cases since we need the framerate to work correctly.

What is it that makes it impossible to get two more frame so that the sweetspot is hit for all people in PAL countries? I think 48 fps maximum at 5K is the biggest flaw the camera has at the moment.

 

[Nick Korompilas]

Nick, I can't give you a definitive answer. But I do know that Komodo's price tag and feature set requires giving something up. And frame rates is the notable compromise. But 97%+ of what I shoot is 24FPS. SO to get all the benefits of Red RAW, plus global shutter, plus a maturing auto-focus using RF lenses... Komodo ticks all my boxes. If I want to over crank some, there is the 48FPS at 6K 2.4:1. If I truly need more than that, I'd rent or use Resolve AI-based time remapping. To get Red RAW and higher FPS means stepping into a system that is 3x or 4x more in price, which I can't justify.

So you'll just need to nail down what your must haves are. There are a lot of great choices these days that ALL can produce great imagery.

@Christian
Most of my work requires 16x9 & social crops (1x1, 4x5, 9x16) so 2.4:1 would just be mostly for personal or short film use. It is nice that 48fps is offered in that format though, I wonder if we could just drop it into a 4K 16x9 timeline and have the benefit of using the full sensor width and 48fps.

@ Andy
Most definitely, I hear you. It sounds like a perfect camera if you mostly/only need 24fps. Personally I do a lot of fashion work and mostly use 48/60fps; tons of these jobs are run-n-gun solo operator style so I've been needing something lightweight, nimble and high quality for a long time. I'm torn between the C300 MKIII and Komodo, but like you mentioned a full DSMC2 kit is not really justifiable for my needs.

An interesting scenario is this though - for 4K output, imagine shooting:
Shoot 6K 2.4:1 @ 48fps (hopefully with HD guides for framing)
Drop 6k 2.4:1 footage into a 4K HD timeline, shrink footage to fit

It seems like that workflow could give you the benefits of:
- 48fps without crop
- additional room on left and right sides to shift frame if needed
- 4k downsample would slightly increase quality

PHFX tools show that this might actually work. I just would hope for a smooth workflow.

 

[Ben Hensley]

Second clip is incredible. First does not look good at all. Maybe a sensor issue, maybe firmware, maybe exposure.

Second clip sells cameras.

Alright, I'll bite. What doesn't look good about the first clip?

 

[Christian Jadot]

@Nick

Cropped down to 5K @48 fps is still equivalent of APS-C width. (The Komodo is like .04 mm wider at 5k). That being said, sometimes a camera just doesn't fit your needs as much as you would like it too. Sometimes you just can't make a square peg go into a round hole.

 

[J. Orlandi]

Second clip is incredible. First does not look good at all. Maybe a sensor issue, maybe firmware, maybe exposure.

Second clip sells cameras.

They are both very heavily graded videos. Both grades to me are just bad. This has nothing to do with the cameras abilities. You can download the RAW and look for yourself. There are also different grades posted and flat looks done too. This is the problem when you post footage with heavy grades in general.

Just go by raw and play with the files yourself personally.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Read any of the comments on Newsshooter, the video itself, etc.

Model looks good music is good video is good, BUT

images look like they’re from a 10+ year old DSLR. Noisy, gray, if it was a job I shot I would not want to show the client, even if the client was the model herself. It is PROBABLY a sensor/firmware/black shade/ exposure problem. Why is there noise in a bright daylight image?

I would not buy that camera.

Second one looks fantastic. Don’t know why don’t care why, I’d buy a camera that can make images that beautiful. Second one looks like an ARRI.

Andrew you do realize you're talking about footage that someone took the time to shoot, and test, for your benefit, right?

There's a WAY to say these things.

You can just say "Hey thanks for these tests, I really LOVE the drone footage".

Instead you go OUT OF YOUR WAY to critique and dismiss the first clip.

This is not generous. This is not kind. And it's not even helpful.

There's a place to be critical. But on test footage? From some one in the community who is clearly making time out of their schedule to post something (from an unpaid shoot).

I get upset when folks aren't generous.

Please be more thoughtful when you post.

This is a community. Not a sports board.

Thanks.

 

[Phil Holland]

And here I am thinking hmmm. Clip 1 shows a fair bit of DR, good skin, some mixed lighting, and Tim even provided the REDCODE RAW files to tinker with.

Guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[J. Orlandi]

I will go on the record to say I do not think the grades on these videos do Komodo justice. Having played with the raw files myself, I can see it’s excellent footage.

Now to the comment about the second video “looking like Arri”. I’m an Arri Alexa XR owner, it does not look like Arri. It looks like footage that has a grade on it.

People need to learn that color grades completely sway the look. I think it’s great we have footage to look at. However I personally believe these color grades were quite bad at showing Komodo off. The raw on the other hand looks excellent, and definitely punches way about its price point. But yeah, there are A LOT of negative comments all over the internet about Tim’s grades videos that came out.

People are used to seeing camera test footage come out with much less harsh grades. Most camera manufacturers do very controlled shoots. So seeing a heavily graded and squashed image right out of the camera bothered a lot of people.

It’s great that Tim made the Raw available, but as someone who does color work on the side, these grades did not show off the camera as a good first impression to people who don’t understand RED Raw has 16bit info and everything isn’t baked.

That’s my 2 bits.

 

[joshua csehak]

Second one looks fantastic. Don’t know why don’t care why, I’d buy a camera that can make images that beautiful. Second one looks like an ARRI.

I think what you're trying to say is that you don't like the "high-contrast with lifted blacks" style of the first one? There's nothing wrong with that, to each his own. But if you're dedicated to image-making enough to buy a $7k camera, maybe it would be in your best interest to learn how to communicate this, rather than "not caring why?"

And I'm with Nick on this one. It's really easy to fall into the trap of acting like a dick on the internet. I've done it myself plenty! But I myself have found that I get a lot more out of my interactions if I talk to people as if they were right there in front of me.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

To me the two videos are interesting and look good. The second one is more impressive in terms of what the camera can do maybe, but the first one doesn't look bad to me. And I don't really see any noise problem. There IS noise, but I don't find it ugly or whatever. In fact, the first video look really RED camera to me and shows me what I like in RED's cameras in terms of texture and visual signature.
(and as others mentionned, it's cool that Tim took the time to shoot and edit these so we can all see what kind of footage the camera is capable of)

 

[Gregory Karydis]

To appreciate the art, you need to enter the mindset of the artist.
I am thankful for Tim's footage for a lot of reasons. It shows just how flexible the RAW footage if from the Komodo, and at the same time he put in the effort to give it even some narrative and a final rendition by the artist as a color grade.
It may not be to everyone's liking, but it works with the footage and pleases my scientific (and nerdy side) with great DR and uncontrolled lighting while at the same time it satisfies all my other senses as a member of the audience.

Jarred made these cameras available, not just to select people, but to everyone who was quick enough to grab one and imposed no restrictions as to how they present the footage.
As a professional, I am sure you can appreciate that RAW always has a lot of potential and we can all recognise processed footage. But it is the final grade that makes it fit with the story.

Whether it's X number of bits or the DR is comparable to this or that camera is only useful if you are comparing camera trading cards.
Komodo was designed to play well with its DSMC2 siblings and fit a number of specific use cases.
At the same time, it looks like it can save our asses in those uncontrolled environments where lighting or shadows may be beyond our control. Or even when camera shake becomes excessive. So I'm happy