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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

KOMODO....

Christopher A. Bell said:
Shouldn't need it. If you look at the PIN diagram for the port there is a separate pin for TC IN, TC OUT and GENLOC, each. If someone knows what they're doing they could build their own cables with only what they need. You could go super low-profile and build a cable that was TC IN only and just slap a Tentacle on it(or just for jamming purposes and let it go, like back in the day). Personally I'd like to have a cable that was TC IN with maybe TC OUT via BNC. Multi-pin TC is stupid from my point of view. I'm from the broadcast/network world and we do TC IN and OUT via BNC. Much simpler and cheaper than specialized multi-pin cables.
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Very interesting ! (that's way beyond my comfort zone those pin diagrams :p)
Everyday this camera seems more and more interesting !
 
With every new camera announced I seem to be answering a lot of questions via email, my various social boxes, and new media outlets. All good.

But since I've been privy to a few things announced and a few more not announced, I'll say the most interesting things about what was to be an eventful 2020 NAB/Cine Gear season of camera announcements, the most interesting thing about all of these things is how little they overlap in terms of core feature sets and capabilities. To which I think that's actually pretty exciting, but we'll see a whole lot of divisive conversation because little overlap or examination.

Just perhaps too much of a hot take for the time being people are comparing RED Komodo to the Canon R5, perhaps today to the BMD UMP 12K (notable as the sensor size is identical as a format actually), people seem to overlook the R6, Sony has this upcoming announcement and more, and there's at least two more surprises before the year is out if it's still on track in the pandemic world.

The best I can say, is it's a great time to grab a camera. Lots of options at various price points. But it will be important to look at the core feature set, functionality, and image quality of all of these tools.

Somewhere between data rates being too high or too low, cameras overheating or being able to be used for 6 hours + on a single brick, various sensor technologies, stuff glaringly omitted, stuff surprisingly added; there are a host of things to look at and questions to ask about who and how people use these things. Some options are pretty far off from what a production camera looks like, but some don't mind that, others find that as a hard stop and barrier to entry, some pricing leads to exploration at minimal risk. There's some that demand a lot from their systems, others who just go by the box specs.

My initial observations just merely by the world of the R5 dropping has been a bit sad to watch as we've seen open minded perspectives focusing on the potential, fully sponsored shooters showing off what it can do, and even fully sponsored by brand S shooters counter marketing leading up to the S launch this month (with awful acting btw BUT still sponsored by Squarespace *snicker*). Absolutely fascinating what our little industry has become in terms of all of this. Meanwhile discerning professionals still dive deep amidst the deluge of so much wire crossing and information.

The good news is we have more tools than we did yesterday. Some of the new gear will become part of my kit and I'll be focusing on what their strengths are. Nothing coming this year luckily replaces my personal preference on A-Cam thankfully. Lots of interesting perspectives lately on what exactly a production camera is, looks like, or even does. But everybody has different expectations and realities.

2020 will go down as a weird year for to many reasons to go into, but for what we all do creatively and professionally we're seeing a lot of interesting tools.
 
Andrew Dease said:
What would new interesting to hear from you is how "thick" you think the image is from thee other cameras. Blackmagic? You've shot 12k by way of combining three monstro images. Your images in general DO LOOK "THICK" whatever that means, micro contrast, 3d depth in the colors. This makes sense as you release the color packs LUTS. Even your Komodo frame the other day with 35mm CP3 looked damn 3d, thick negative (by way of color?) vs anything else. But as some say does it even really matter anymore, if things are just (different flavors of) RAW? 12 vs 16 bit? I was disappointed in the A7 I rented its bit depth was shit compared to RED. I wish I couldve kept my Helium but life + bills. This all being said, do you think the Image from YOUR 12k array VS BMC's 12k camera would be? And dunno how much that matters since the cost to fly yours in the shootover alone would have bought a 12k Ursa. And the cost of the complete rig, just for 12k, would have been astronomical.

You compare Komodo to this new 12k sensor, but that goes against the 10+ years of resolution arguments.

Personally the only way I could justify Komodo (resolution and sensor size) was well, put a speed booster on it.

Its unlike Red to go backwards or lateral with their moves. But I see that happening a lot the past few years.
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I really don't like discussing camera systems until I have the opportunity to test them. And though I have sample clips from the UMP 12K here, I'm hesitant on saying much especially before a camera launches. The fortunate and unfortunate position I'm in is people listen to me because they know I test a great deal and get paid to test cameras often. Mainly I discover what a system is good at, what it's bad at, how to get the most out of it, and what you should avoid ever doing. Outside of that my demands when it comes to image quality are mainly studio driven or higher end client's needs as well as my personal desires, which certainly doesn't reflect the vast majority of the industry. What I care about is likely not what somebody would care about filming a 15 second social media spots for instance.

The UMP 12K is an accomplishment and it certainly has shocked some of the BMD community it seems, but that's all gravy, takes time for people to come to terms with technology advancing and what that might mean for their individual workflow. What is known is it's a 2.2 micron pixel pitch with an 6x6 RGBW pixel array versus a traditional Bayer Pattern (2x2 GRBG). I've seen similar concepts their array in the past, ideally or likely it's 6 Red, 6 Green, 6 Blue (18 RGB) pixels and then 18 White or Clear pixels. This was likely done to combat the light loss of very small microlenses on the 2.2 pixels, perhaps also help in the dynamic range a bit as well. But also this array structure is part of the partial de-mosiac approach to BRAW and what allows the sensor to do full sensor higher frame rates perhaps without artifacts commonly seen with pixel binning or line skipping. All interesting approaches really.

I'll echo my sentiment again, BRAW was/is a smart move for BMD and they needed something like this to move forward because CinemaDNG turns out to be a dead end street for so many. And in it's partial de-mosaic implementation it allows for efficient workflows on modest hardware. That said, that's not the number 1 priority if you have more bit depth or a chunkier data rate for some. That's why you hear me discussing data footprints certainly when bidding a project. We're seeing both sides of this conversation now where 300MB/s is too much to some and 600MB/s isn't too much for others, meanwhile a bunch seem to not be able to handle 150MB/s. It's just too dynamic out there and project to project you'll have different budgets for all of these considerations.

I don't think it will set the world on fire as I've been recommending it for years and there are 3rd party Low Pass filters offered for BMD cameras, but ideally you'll want to put a Low Pass filter in front of this sensor for day to day shooting. There is color aliasing in one of the locked off shots shown during the launch and that's something you don't want to experience in post production expenses if you can avoid it. Conversely I've been told by one of the beta shooters that they haven't experienced aliasing yet, but I mean I can see it on the bricks on that tower pretty clearly. You can use vintage glass, other filters that soften the image, or even explore deeper stops and have diffraction help in that realm. But yes, do use a low pass and yes it will cut into that delicious resolution. But it will also keep you from getting fired potentially.

The commitment on a production level for my 12K, 16K, and higher array work is not something you'd use on say filming a deodorant commercial and arrays aren't great for narrative filmmaking. Most of the reason I'm doing that is to achieve not only high resolution, high bit depth imagery, but also to explore things like a 60x40mm (and larger) image plane as a very large format. This is unusual work that most of the industry really isn't doing.

I'm not exactly going to be in agreeance in regards to RED going backwards over the years. The only real surprise is they came out with a host of different sensor technologies. They had to deal with the early criticism of going 8K in S35 and VV formats, but they did release cinema grade cameras that did so and still do so very well and have been used in those applications now for years. Dragon is Dragon and I still think one of the most important sensors they've made. Gemini is the S35 workhorse dual ISO thing with some friendly anamorphic mindset. Komodo is so damn new most people don't even understand it, but it's alarmingly interesting as well.


It does sound like you are looking for a full frame camera though Andrew as you reference a speed booster in the Komodo musings. Komodo and this UMP 12K do have the exact same size sensor as a format size and I do find that interesting because that makes working with them together easier honestly and you did have a larger sensor with Helium. As you've learned there's concessions with the video quality offered in a lot of the mirrorless cams in comparison to a pretty evolved and advanced digital cinema camera. That's just how it is, the higher end tools are higher end for reasons. We haven't seen a camera launch for $$,$$$ that should have been a thousand bucks. Companies develop these things then release them with a reasonable profit to stay in business. If a camera is more expensive it should be better than something less expensive. If a camera is a decade old compared to a new one, well, technology advances.


Truly, I don't know what everybody is looking for out of a camera or exactly what they have to spend. I've been gathering with filmmakers all across the world during the pandemic via Zoom on Tuesdays and we all work in such different markets that it's almost hilarious listening to everybody's camera chats. The market is just too dynamic with job budgets in the $$$ through $$$,$$$,$$$ range being represented and I don't even understand how $$$ or sometimes $,$$$ worlds even work. And heck, most of us aren't doing a damn thing right now anyways.


I'm going to truly take a different route in celebrating these new tools than whatever the hell I'm seeing elsewhere online in early looks, critiques, and even memes. I find Komodo fascinating, fun, and useful. Ill have my Canon R5 here any moment and will happily add that to my family of tools, though I am mainly there for kick ass stills. When the time comes I'll dive deep into the BMD UMP 12K and it is of interest to me for sure. The new Sony camera is neat, a little not what I personally need and I already have a couple E-Mounts here that aren't exactly daily use tools, though my A7RII has been a useful Zoom cam in a big way. I've already mentioned my fondness for the C500 MK II and some curiosities but mostly good thoughts on the FX9. This new BMD camera sort of sits in the realm of those bodies in terms of it's goals.

The harder thing with all of this is expecting Monstro level performance out of a camera that might cost $,$$$. Technology advances fast, but that isn't exactly how any of this new stuff fairs out in comparison so far especially if you're pixel peeping. It's getting trickier though. New cameras are coming now often every 3-6 months due to the accelerated nature of hardware development these days. Shortly they'll be more 6K and 8K cameras on the market and they will be at interesting price points, but the features, performance, and image quality are really the key. People at the end of the day go with what they enjoy working with and find reliable. Higher end productions, camera cost is less of issue. Workflow becomes a bigger issue on larger projects, less so often on smaller. World still spinning tomorrow.

Ah, and to the original point about thickness. Thick images generally have rich color information with a good chunk of dynamic range. With film we used to describe things as thick and thin in regards to density which related to how the image was exposed and how much range you had into the base fog and generally how much color was in the image to tinker with. How much latitude and all that comes into play. I like me a thick digital negative and any DP or colorist knows when they got one. But you can certainly shoot so awfully that even the thickest camera looks awful in skinny jeans. Expose accordingly.
 
Phil i love your inside view.
I guess most of us who own RED want to make good investment and try to buy a camera that will last us as long as possible and be profitable.
I am a Red Dragon DSCM1 owner and I love the image and will probably use this one until it dies (hopefully not too soon). This camera is old and still in line with 90% of the cameras out there. It was my best investment so far for sure.
Right now I was looking at Komodo as I am a Hydrogen owner and also love the formfactor for the work I do around the globe for Red Bull. But with extreme sports FPS is a big factor next to DR (remote locations without any additional light so DR is important as lots of times we have one off take,...) so BM is interesting in the FPS area compared to Komodo...
I am not a hardcore image analyzer as you are so your input on opacity filters and stuff like that is what im looking for in the thread... stuff that i dont know and will help me make the best decision for my work and my company.
Thank you again for the inside and please keep them coming.
Cheers,
Uros
 
The Komodo and the URSA are 2 completely different tools. I see it as "fair" if you want to the Komodo with any of the Pocket cams (even though I still see them as fairly dissimilar, but plenty of overlap.) Compare URSA to the Helium (Ranger), the closest in the RED line up.

And even if everything was priced the same, I would pick the Komodo over the Helium because I need something compact, rugged and near cinema quality. I don't know enough about the URSA, but I really doubt I can keep a kit in my carry-on going through airports.
 
I’m glad someone else describes red images as thick, that’s what I say too. I thought I was odd. But I look at my blackmagic footage and others like z cam ect and I think it looks ‘thin’. It’s the only way I can describe it. RED footage dose looks’thicker’ haha. Denser contrast maby? ... I don’t know... looks like double layered footage. I like it. Not saying other cameras are bad, just that the image of the lower market cameras look a bit ‘thin’...
 
Peter Stanley said:
I’m glad someone else describes red images as thick, that’s what I say too. I thought I was odd. But I look at my blackmagic footage and others like z cam ect and I think it looks ‘thin’. It’s the only way I can describe it. RED footage dose looks’thicker’ haha. Denser contrast maby? ... I don’t know... looks like double layered footage. I like it. Not saying other cameras are bad, just that the image of the lower market cameras look a bit ‘thin’...
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Definitely. BM images have always looked thin to me.
 
Christian Jadot said:
snip:

And even if everything was priced the same, I would pick the Komodo over the Helium because I need something compact, rugged and near cinema quality. I don't know enough about the URSA, but I really doubt I can keep a kit in my carry-on going through airports.
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If comparing apples to apples, there would be no problem in fitting URSA in a carry on bag. The URSA body itself is not that large, yet has everything you need - built in no cable monitor, XLR audio inputs, multiple SDI outs, built in ND, Cfast and SD card slots, plus usb-c drive capability. (and a 12k sensor :wink5:)

Komodo with separate monitor and an audio interface device, probably takes up as much room in a bag as the Ursa body.

Even fully kitted out with shoulder kit, viewfinder and top handle the URSA is substantially smaller than the "Betacams" news photographers have carried on in soft bags for the past 40 years.
 
Thick, as in the "feel" of the image. I think RED cameras have had this feel ever since RED One. Besides the colour science I believe that RED cameras also don't have any electronic sharpening of the image and that this is one of the factors behind the "thick feel".
 
Andrew Dease said:
Thats unfortunate because as a VFX guy, it would be great to hear your thoughts on it.
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Got that same question yesterday. As I was on the road for 11 hours, I spent most of the time analysing how and under what conditions a 12K sensor could be useful for VFX and not only. Also, there's some interesting phrasing in the official release when it comes to the Dynamic Range and one must keep an open mind as to how exactly BM interprets it.

Personally I had the opportunity to work with an over 100MP sensor for motion before and have experimented with the 6R6G6B sensors Phil mentions in smaller setups. I hope the odd/even writing on the dual CFast is a guarantee, but as we know in production, nothing is safe until the DCP...

The bane of every Post Production specialist's existence when it comes to high pixel count sensors is high pixel counts! From extreme moire and aliasing, to dropped frames, etc.

There was a time when I'd long for higher and higher resolution sensors, but little did I know that with a lot of pixels, comes a lot of responsibility... Not everyone can make a camera with it and not everyone can shoot it either.

Thankfully, these days there's different tools for every use case. Case in point, the Komodo and the BMD 12K Ursa.

Apologies for the rambling, It's been a looooong drive and I haven't slept in 32 hours.
If you want, PM me, I might be more coherent in a few hours :D

Michael Hastings said:
If comparing apples to apples, there would be no problem in fitting URSA in a carry on bag. The URSA body itself is not that large, yet has everything you need -....plus usb-c drive capability....
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Oh, yeah, forgot about that one!
I feel a bit uneasy with the build quality of that external storage...��

Anyway, back to the Komodo!
Gotta admit I'm very excited about the possibilities with that baby Dragon! Got a ton of requests from camera people of all sorts who'd love to use it.
 
Gregory Karydis said:
snip:
I feel a bit uneasy with the build quality of that external storage...��
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The SSD box is pretty solid, I had the older version on an Ursa 4.6. Seems like they did about as much as you can to beef up the cable situation with their short cable with locking USB-C connector on both ends.
 
The URSA Mini is about as a mini a camera as the Alexa Mini when its all rigged up. Cage lens and vmount adapter on Komodo should still be smaller and lighter than the Ursa Mini. I just shot with a fully rigged mini for the past week and I marveled at just how not small it is.
 
Michael Hastings said:
Even fully kitted out with shoulder kit, viewfinder and top handle the URSA is substantially smaller than the "Betacams" news photographers have carried on in soft bags for the past 40 years.
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The real problem with the Ursa is that complete lack of style. Even a BVW400 from the mid 90s is sexier :smiley:
 
Alvise Tedesco said:
The real problem with the Ursa is that complete lack of style. Even a BVW400 from the mid 90s is sexier :smiley:
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Lol. I agree. I spent a lot of time with 400A's and D600's on my shoulder in the late 90's/early 00's. The BMD camera's just seem so consumerish in their design. Kinda like what Vitec did about five years ago(Vitec was worse, though. It all looked like Fisher-Price). I've laid my hands on one, and they are solid. WAY more than I imagined just looking at it, but they still look like they were designed by someone who had never actually touched a real camera, just looked at pictures and tried to translate it to a much less expensive consumer version. I mean, why is the ND turret knob so small and skinny? And the VF looks like it would snap the first time you grabbed it and made an adjustment in a hurry.
 
has anyone confirmed if KOMODO can do 4k 60p using the full, uncropped S35 sensor?

super curious about that, saw some articles stating this online but no "confirmed" info that I can find yet.

EDIT: found this on Cinema5D, which is what I was referencing above

6k full sensor @ up to 40fps
6K wide (2.4:1) @ up to 48fps
5k full sensor @ up to 48fps
4k full sensor @ up to 60fps
2k full sensor @ up to 120fps

link: https://www.cinema5d.com/red-komodo-update-cameras-shipped-footage-samples/
 
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