KOMODO....

[Robert Hofmeyr]

So that I actually contribute to the discussion today, I have to say that as a SW owner I'm conflicted. I've signed up to upgrade my camera to the newly 6k Dragon-X and timed it for late Feb/early March. The price to do that upgrade is very close to what we're expecting Komodo to come in at, and I likely already own quite a bit of the accessories to make Komodo shootable.

I don't know if I'm better off going through with the upgrade or getting a matching B/gimbal cam for my Scarlet. There are compelling reasons to do both and I can only afford to do one or the other. Decisions decisions...

I'm in a similar boat Fahnon - stick with my Weapon Mg and save for future upgrades, or sell it and buy Komodo and accessories. I can't justify owning 2 cameras. For me the global shutter, reduced weight, size, and power consumption is really appealing. But I'll definitely miss having 50p/60p @6K. Another thing to take into account is upgradability - Red has always been generous with their upgrade options, and I'm concerned that if I sell my Mg, DSMC3 will become out of reach for me. It's not an easy decision, and obviously we can only decide once final specs and footage are seen, but I'm currently leaning toward the Komodo.

 

[Raphaël_FR]

I am very intrigued by the sensor that RED announces ... They say it is special ... I wonder if it is not an OPF CMOS sensor (Organic Photosensor Film) with adjustable iso sensitivity (not in gain but in real as in film by prohibiting the saturation of silicon photodiode), ND filters would be of no use ! This is compatible with the global shutter, would also increase the dynamics of several stops and the sensor could accept very inclined rays (less vignetting and no false colors in the corners)

The Organic Photosensor Film was invented by Fuji and Panasonic had to industrialize it a few years ago but to my knowledge there is no camera using this sensor on the market yet.

 

[Carlos_Crespo]

I'm in a similar boat Fahnon - stick with my Weapon Mg and save for future upgrades, or sell it and buy Komodo and accessories. I can't justify owning 2 cameras. For me the global shutter, reduced weight, size, and power consumption is really appealing. But I'll definitely miss having 50p/60p @6K. Another thing to take into account is upgradability - Red has always been generous with their upgrade options, and I'm concerned that if I sell my Mg, DSMC3 will become out of reach for me. It's not an easy decision, and obviously we can only decide once final specs and footage are seen, but I'm currently leaning toward the Komodo.

Same for me Robert. I'll be definitely missing 6K60p. I would pay more for Komodo if it had 6K60p and 4K75p (FF or with the least crop as possible). Or even a similar price as the DSMC2 if it had thus HFR for that matter. But than, that's not what Komodo was intended for...It's always going to be a compromise for thus who will use it as an A-cam.

I could easily leave without the expandability and everything else the DSMC2 line offers in favor of Global Shutter and Komodo's portability, low power consumption and workflow (like a MF still camera). Now, if you add HFR let's say 6K60p in FF/ 6K75p in 2.4:1 and 4K96p, although I still prefer GS over HFR, I'ld pay the same price as a DSMC2. But that's a lot of wishful thinking...

 

[Eric Lange]

I am very intrigued by the sensor that RED announces ... They say it is special ... I wonder if it is not an OPF CMOS sensor (Organic Photosensor Film) with adjustable iso sensitivity (not in gain but in real as in film by prohibiting the saturation of silicon photodiode), ND filters would be of no use ! This is compatible with the global shutter, would also increase the dynamics of several stops and the sensor could accept very inclined rays (less vignetting and no false colors in the corners)

The Organic Photosensor Film was invented by Fuji and Panasonic had to industrialize it a few years ago but to my knowledge there is no camera using this sensor on the market yet.

[Emphasis added.].

@Raphaël_FR ~ That's not as far fetched as it might seem.

Googling about for 50 seconds stumbled across this.

https://news.panasonic.com/global/press/data/2018/02/en180214-2/en180214-2.html

^^^ some of this I've seen kicking about and didn't know how mature it was (yet) ? + quality of actual implementation in a practicable way + production / manufacturing techniques required + materials / long term stability of specific "photo electric" polymeric materials in such a "Matrix" ?

Some of the things we are having to engineer mechanically have gone from +/- 2.5 micron thru to sub micron 0.00025 mm / in the ten millionths range (of an inch) so almost by necessity having to learn techniques more commonly found in the semi-conductor industry than regular (high tolerance) mechanical engineering, inadvertently I'm learning more about semiconductor manufacturing processes especially the "Machines" that make these things (rather than the chips themselves).

I've seen adds for test bed small 120 Mega pixels sensors from Canon , but the sensor is really small. So I'm still a believer of larger high quality optics on larger sensors (call me old fashioned).

The materials science and basic physics / diffraction limits + MTFs still means you have to put a lens to the sensor and I sometimes wonder about a mis-match where you essentially have a lot of what I call "Flabby pixels" , i.e. there is a lot of pixels but not a lot of resolved "data" spatially / diminishing returns.

IF RED is using something like " OPF CMOS sensor (Organic Photosensor Film) with adjustable iso sensitivity" ; then I am wondering about newer / slightly different lens designs for low distortion wide angle short focal length lenses that are easy to calibrate and don't fall apart at the edges (Kinda Like what you are saying @Raphaël_FR about vignetting at the corners + more oblique rays creating more chromatic-ish artifacts and this new technology is more tolerant of more oblique ray angles with fewer artifacts. ).

Fujifilm have made some super moves with the GFX 50s, GFX 100, and GFX 50 R integrating with more conventional sensors, but killer/ game changing (low) price point ( as compared to team "Phase/ Mamiya/ Leaf/ Schneider Optics and other related "Peeps" ), but still the body design is much more awkward and complicated to work with than a narrow-ish cube camera (at least for what we need).

Interesting , @Raphaël thanks for throwing that up there, will dig about some more these next few days.

 

[Han Vogen]

No way this sensor will find its way into a camera as small as Komodo. I’m not saying I would be opposed to seeing something this revolutionary in this camera... but in all honesty, I cannot imagine it will make it’s commercial debut in anything other than a Panasonic or Fuji body.

That said, I have high hopes that whatever sensor finds it’s way into Komodo, we will not be disappointed. I’m eagerly awaiting the first footage to confirm this.

 

[David Rasberry]

Panasonic is developing the organic photo sensor. The organic layer sits on top of the normal pixel layer and acts a charge dependent ND filter for an otherwise conventional sensor.

Komodo is an evolution of Red’s existing sensor tech with global shutter features that don’t compromise DR and phase detect autofocus built in. Both are pretty significant upgrades to a sensor line that is among the best in existence to start with.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Panasonic is developing the organic photo sensor. The organic layer sits on top of the normal pixel layer and acts a charge dependent ND filter for an otherwise conventional sensor.

I don't think that Panasonic is still working on it, since it sold it sensor division to Nuvoton recently. Hopefully Novuton and/or TowerJazz keep it alive.

Komodo is an evolution of Red’s existing sensor tech with global shutter features that don’t compromise DR and phase detect autofocus built in. Both are pretty significant upgrades to a sensor line that is among the best in existence to start with.

Either by itself would be a pretty impressive upgrade, so having both in such a compact body is going to be pretty sweet. By comparison, the lower max frame rates seems like a pretty minor sacrifice.

 

[Fahnon Bennett]

I'm in a similar boat Fahnon - stick with my Weapon Mg and save for future upgrades, or sell it and buy Komodo and accessories. I can't justify owning 2 cameras. For me the global shutter, reduced weight, size, and power consumption is really appealing. But I'll definitely miss having 50p/60p @6K. Another thing to take into account is upgradability - Red has always been generous with their upgrade options, and I'm concerned that if I sell my Mg, DSMC3 will become out of reach for me. It's not an easy decision, and obviously we can only decide once final specs and footage are seen, but I'm currently leaning toward the Komodo.

I hear you, Robert. If I were in your exact boat though, I'd wait until DSMC3 to make a decision. Sure you'll lose some resale value on your current rig, but you'll know what the upgrade situation is for both Komodo and your DSMC2 cam. I'd expect DSMC3 to have many of the advantages of Komodo (like global shutter and lower power draw), so we will probably gain everything but the size/weight advantage on the next round of bigger cameras (I'd also predict the price of DSMC3 will be either much higher or lower in general, but that's for another thread).

My situation is one where if I don't take the upgrade to the Dragon X it will be gone likely forever, so by March I'll have done one or the other.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

Do you need Slo Mo? Do you need modularity? Do you need more robust locking mounts? DSMC2

Why a locking mount is a luxury commodity for a cinema camera?
Or Komodo is not a cinema camera?
Is it a still camera like Canon 1dx III or Fuji X-t4 or Panasonic LUMIX S1H ?

 

[Robert Hofmeyr]

I hear you, Robert. If I were in your exact boat though, I'd wait until DSMC3 to make a decision. Sure you'll lose some resale value on your current rig, but you'll know what the upgrade situation is for both Komodo and your DSMC2 cam. I'd expect DSMC3 to have many of the advantages of Komodo (like global shutter and lower power draw), so we will probably gain everything but the size/weight advantage on the next round of bigger cameras (I'd also predict the price of DSMC3 will be either much higher or lower in general, but that's for another thread).

My situation is one where if I don't take the upgrade to the Dragon X it will be gone likely forever, so by March I'll have done one or the other.

Good point Fahnon. Thanks. Of course the other side of the coin is that I could wait for DSMC3 only to find its out of my budget. I guess I could still buy a Komodo then, but as you say, I would get less for my Weapon and I'd probably lose out on the Hydrogen discount as well.

 

[Colton John McLaughlin]

Why a locking mount is a luxury commodity for a cinema camera?
Or Komodo is not a cinema camera?
Is it a still camera like Canon 1dx III or Fuji X-t4 or Panasonic LUMIX S1H ?

I’m sorry but your question doesn’t make sense. I’m not talking about luxury commodity of cameras. I’m not comparing to stills cameras. I’m just stating a fact. The Komodo is RF mount and does not have the ability to swap mounts, you can only add adapters. The DSMC2 lineup has interchangeable lens mounts, and the EF mount has an additional locking ring. These are facts, they don’t quantify if a camera is “cine” or “still”.

Obviously the Komodo is a CINEMA camera. It just has an RF mount that does not include an additional locking ring. This is just because it doesn’t necessarily need one. We saw Jarreds post with that huge anamorphic lens and it seems to do just fine without it.

 

[Phil Holland]

Why a locking mount is a luxury commodity for a cinema camera?
Or Komodo is not a cinema camera?
Is it a still camera like Canon 1dx III or Fuji X-t4 or Panasonic LUMIX S1H ?

I can answer this question with the rather obvious answer.

Komodo is a super compact and affordable cinema camera. It's pretty much in the description right there.

In the case of Komodo, since it's so damn small, many will try to use that to their advantage with native RF glass which isn't very heavy and if you need more robust lens mounts you have options. If you slug a fixed PL mount on there, you we be looking at a longer and heavier camera system. And it would be rad if their were user interchangeable mounts, but again you are getting into a place where the camera gets bigger and more expensive. That's where lens adapters come in. And if there was some sort of radical new design to create a locking RF mount, which might happen one day, it would require a radical new design and likely add a smidge of weight and certainly cost into the equation.

You will have the option to go from RF to virtually anything. And you will be able to securely mount or PL, EF, R, L, FD, OM, M654, H645, or whatever adapters. Pretty much everything except for Z or E Mount lenses.

It's very important to be aware that RED is doing everything it can to release a camera at this price point: $,$$$. Not $$,$$$. And also keep the camera the smallest and lightest weight package possible.

*edit, Colton gets it.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

I’m sorry but your question doesn’t make sense. I’m not talking about luxury commodity of cameras. I’m not comparing to stills cameras. I’m just stating a fact. The Komodo is RF mount and does not have the ability to swap mounts, you can only add adapters. The DSMC2 lineup has interchangeable lens mounts, and the EF mount has an additional locking ring. These are facts, they don’t quantify if a camera is “cine” or “still”.

Obviously the Komodo is a CINEMA camera. It just has an RF mount that does not include an additional locking ring. This is just because it doesn’t necessarily need one. We saw Jarreds post with that huge anamorphic lens and it seems to do just fine without it.

How many cinema lenses have RF mount?
How do you Know it doesn't need a locking mount? From experience working with cinema optics, adapters, and photo mounts?
That picture with huge anamorphic lens is how somebody will use camera on set?
If so many people talk about this camera as gimbal camera, they will use photo optics?

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

I can answer this question with the rather obvious answer.

Komodo is a super compact and affordable cinema camera. It's pretty much in the description right there.

In the case of Komodo, since it's so damn small, many will try to use that to their advantage with native RF glass which isn't very heavy and if you need more robust lens mounts you have options. If you slug a fixed PL mount on there, you we be looking at a longer and heavier camera system. And it would be rad if their were user interchangeable mounts, but again you are getting into a place where the camera gets bigger and more expensive. That's where lens adapters come in. And if there was some sort of radical new design to create a locking RF mount, which might happen one day, it would require a radical new design and likely add a smidge of weight and certainly cost into the equation.

You will have the option to go from RF to virtually anything. And you will be able to securely mount or PL, EF, R, L, FD, OM, M654, H645, or whatever adapters. Pretty much everything except for Z or E Mount lenses.

It's very important to be aware that RED is doing everything it can to release a camera at this price point: $,$$$. Not $$,$$$. And also keep the camera the smallest and lightest weight package possible.

*edit, Colton gets it.

Phil days ago, you promised to show Komodo in cinema configuration with PL glass. Something like with radio focus.

You see cinema cameras are like racing cars, very specific beasts. Not every car can be competitive on a track. Don't tell there will be no comparisons to the counterparts. Still cameras are not Komodo will be compared to.
RF gives variants, but is it so much steadier than EF. BlackMagic 6K, Sony Alfas, Canon 5D can have some play with adapters to PL when you put radio focus on it.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

It's very important to be aware that RED is doing everything it can to release a camera at this price point: $,$$$. Not $$,$$$. And also keep the camera the smallest and lightest weight package possible.

Why not to have two variants RF and PL ? Be it- PL will cost more, but it will be easily "rentable", will use a lot of beautiful optics without breaking head how it will react to movement and so on.
I see only pluses for uses and for Red if there will be two options.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Why not to have two variants RF and PL ? Be it- PL will cost more, but it will be easily "rentable", will use a lot of beautiful optics without breaking head how it will react to movement and so on.
I see only pluses for uses and for Red if there will be two options.

A hard mount PL will only be PL. A Hard mount RF can be whatever. I think what you're asking for is most likely in the DSMC3 realm.

 

[Alex Stolpakov]

A hard mount PL will only be PL. A Hard mount RF can be whatever. I think what you're asking for is most likely in the DSMC3 realm.

A Hard mount RF can be whatever--- with workarounds, don't you got tired to hear that "some"cameras need workarounds.
DSMC3 will be more than Komodo with PL. I hope.
So why not give a chance for PL uses to choose PL variant? And for anybody who feel need in changing mounts RF?

 

[Andy Jarosz]

A Hard mount RF can be whatever--- with workarounds, don't you got tired to hear that "some"cameras need workarounds.
DSMC3 will be more than Komodo with PL. I hope.
So why not give a chance for PL uses to choose PL variant? And for anybody who feel need in changing mounts RF?

I really don't feel it's a workaround at all--think of it like the Sony FZ mount. It's just that instead of only taking adapters, it can also take lenses, enabling small setups.

Is your concern just the pure strength of the mount? It doesn't matter what the mount is, at some point, you're going to need a lens support anyway.

 

[Colton John McLaughlin]

A Hard mount RF can be whatever--- with workarounds, don't you got tired to hear that "some"cameras need workarounds.
DSMC3 will be more than Komodo with PL. I hope.
So why not give a chance for PL uses to choose PL variant? And for anybody who feel need in changing mounts RF?

There are so many PL mount options for you, including all of REDs previous cameras, DSMC1 and DSMC2, all ARRI, some black magic, Sony, canon etc. The Komodo might not be right for you.

The thing is, Komodo does have the ability to use PL lenses and it does give you a chance. Using adapters is not “a workaround” at least not for many people. For me it’s a blessing. I can use my PL lenses, RF, EF, MD, M42, FD etc. Use a lens support on the mount adapter and you’re all good!

Photo optics are so good these days that you can definitely use them on cinema projects, albeit for more indie projects, but films like mad max use canon L lenses for their crash cams. Remember, Komodo is a crash and gimbal cam that has autofocus. Why develop autofocus for a camera then not have a native mount that allows for it to be used?

 

[jamesbridges]

Hey Jarred,
Any chance to have the option of using the new GDU batteries?