KOMODO....

[Rakesh Malik]

The HYDROGEN project encompassed other cameras as well, not just cell phones and H4V formats + LEIA RED displays.

If you go through the patent literature there were some really interesting different camera designs and really interesting alternate interconnecting lens mounts etc. And several different imager ideas / cameras floated out there for larger future HYDROGEN ecosystem.

Also around the time there were initial exploratory discussions with Terry Gou and FOXCONN as well as other needs and some other really BIG moving parts (as big as it gets).

None of this has anything to do with the fact that the Komodo camera was in development already.

I think it would be super awesome IF RED continued to develop other globally sensored cameras [As that would be super helpful to our aims.] but as the RED Motto and Maxim states "Everything can and will change.". ].

Personally I don't see why RED would develop a globally shuttered camera ? (in the first place ? / per say ? ) Given various applications spaces and tradeoffs and needs for commercial broadcast and Film industry ?

Jarred already said that several customers had been asking for cameras with global shutters.

 

[Eric Lange]

I think Komodo is the way forward for RED.

DSMC2 will live on, there will be like a 12K sensor or something crazy, or 8K Dual ISO...

Komodo will come in 6K, then eventually 8K. Maybe a Dual ISO option.

Then DSMC3 will be similar form factor to DSMC2, but maybe have some design options of Komodo (like rf mount, but this time with a locking ring)

DSMC3 will have a hybrid Gemini/Komodo sensor to start, so you get all the perks of DSMC2, but with Dual ISO, Global Shutter, and AUTOFOCUS!!!

This is all speculation but this is where I see RED going in the next 7 years....

I really hope so !!! YKWIM ?

But I never get what I want :smilielol5:

So what works for RED right now and various histories and money(s) spent thereof (for reasons that we may one day learn), and what they want to do in the future might not be in-line with what our group / little ship would love to run with and put into other people's hands some very cool capabilities.

Short of building your own sensors from scratch (which is something I don't want to do) I really hope you are right @Colton John McLaughlin, there are some really amazing capabilities that can be enabled by a KOMODO like sensor.

Honestly you never know what RED is gonna do next, that makes them a very interesting company.

 

[Eric Lange]

None of this has anything to do with the fact that the Komodo camera was in development already.



Jarred already said that several customers had been asking for cameras with global shutters.

Well that's encouraging …

Don't want to get my hopes up too high YKWIM ?

Good to get it from the horse's mouth.

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There were tentative explorations for a narrower RED Camera also aimed specifically at the Chinese market at least in form factor , so utilizing the caché of RED name and tech.

These guys/ RED have a lot ideas and leave no stone unturned.

 

[Colton John McLaughlin]

I really hope so !!! YKWIM ?

But I never get what I want :smilielol5:

So what works for RED right now and various histories and money(s) spent thereo, what they want to do in the future might not be in-line with what our group / little ship would love to run with and put into other people's hands some very cool capabilities.

Short of building your own sensors from scratch (which is something I don't want to do) I really hope you are right @Colton John McLaughlin

i'm hoping some of my predictions come true, i too, dont want to get my hopes too high, but i love dreaming about the possibilities!

Something thats a real crazy dream of mine would be a Komodo Body, RF mount, 8K monstro sensor, 24fps FF max film rate in 8K, 6K 40fps[windowed], 4k 120fps[windowed].

The idea behind it however is not directed towards video, but make it a stills camera, with those specs! Medium format form factor 35mp stills camera, with limited 8k video capabilities!

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Well that's encouraging …

Don't want to get my hopes up too high YKWIM ?

Yes... but logically, whey would Red dedicate its sensor design team to a one-off like that? Odds are, every Red camera in the future will have a switchable rolling/global shutter option. Since Jarred said it has no affect on dynamic range, then the worst case is that it's a nice bullet point feature for Red's cameras.

 

[Eric Lange]

Yes... but logically, whey would Red dedicate its sensor design team to a one-off like that? Odds are, every Red camera in the future will have a switchable rolling/global shutter option. Since Jarred said it has no affect on dynamic range, then the worst case is that it's a nice bullet point feature for Red's cameras.

KOMODO fit the future needs for HYDROGEN extremely well, none of their other cameras they have or had in their line up would fit anywhere nearly as well. Initially it was anticipated that uptake for HYDROGEN and continuation of the project would be much larger scale.

Coincidence ? Maybe ? Maybe not ? (shrugging shoulders).

"Logically" - :biggrin: One of the things I love about RED is they don't do anything "Logically" it's with real passion, dynamism and being pretty agile in some cases to meet more immediate needs. So things can change very dramatically.

<snip> Odds are, every Red camera in the future will have a switchable rolling/global shutter option. Since Jarred said it has no affect on dynamic range, then the worst case is that it's a nice bullet point feature for Red's cameras.

As nice as that would be, I don't see that happening. The Dynamic Range for KOMODO will probably be very decent indeed, but is not the same architecture for sensor and imaging pipeline that's designed for the highest level of image quality deliverable for Digital Cinematics.

~ Personally for professional cinematic equipment (of the highest order) I don't reckon that Global Shutter would be offered as it would create mild compromises elsewhere.

Would be nice if it crept into their future mid tiered offerings.

I think it's an either / or technical choice for high end work. But certainly globally shutter cameras for VFX and other more digitally oriented applications would be super useful in high end productions as well + form factor ~ Still a question whether RED will seek to take that space or dominate in other areas ?

I'm sure KOMODO will find it's way into a lot of productions.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

KOMODO fit the future needs for HYDROGEN extremely well, none of their other cameras they have or had in their line up would fit anywhere nearly as well. Initially it was anticipated that uptake for HYDROGEN and continuation of the project would be much larger scale.

Since the Komodo predated the Hydrogen, how is the Hydrogen update relevant?

"Logically" - :biggrin: One of the things I love about RED is they don't do anything "Logically" it's with real passion, dynamism and being pretty agile in some cases to meet more immediate needs. So things can change very dramatically.

There is a lot of passion driving Red, but without logic it wouldn't still be here.

As nice as that would be, I don't see that happening. The Dynamic Range for KOMODO will probably be very decent indeed, but is not the same architecture for sensor and imaging pipeline that's designed for the highest level of image quality deliverable for Digital Cinematics.

~ Personally for professional cinematic equipment (of the highest order) I don't reckon that Global Shutter would be offered as it would create mild compromises elsewhere.

So you're assuming that Red can't make any further improvements on the Komodo sensor in a future version?

 

[David Rasberry]

i'm hoping some of my predictions come true, i too, dont want to get my hopes too high, but i love dreaming about the possibilities!

Something thats a real crazy dream of mine would be a Komodo Body, RF mount, 8K monstro sensor, 24fps FF max film rate in 8K, 6K 40fps[windowed], 4k 120fps[windowed].

The idea behind it however is not directed towards video, but make it a stills camera, with those specs! Medium format form factor 35mp stills camera, with limited 8k video capabilities!

I like this idea too. 8K for stills would be spectacular.

 

[Eric Lange]

<snips>

So you're assuming that Red can't make any further improvements on the Komodo sensor in a future version?

The key question is whether RED will see a need for a future KOMODO ?

Only Jarred can answer that and hey may not know himself until he gets an opportunity to test the market or not … Not that market viability has ever stopped them from doing something they really want to do.

Obviously what I'm saying is there is a basic design compromise or choice that has to be made.

So if you want globally shuttered camera then perhaps expect slightly diminished color space and DR and possibly slower shutter speeds (in some cases).

If you want the BEST dynamic range and color space for large area of silicon with high number of photo sites then probably a globally shuttered (electronically) is not gonna be your first choice.

Simply put:

~ Horses for courses

~ A camel is a horse designed by committee . (There's only so many do-all features that you can smash together .).

It may be that Jarred two years from now sees no need for anymore globally shuttered sensors ? <----- That is a possibility , He's the Boss and decides (in large measure) what RED should produce, the profit margin may not be that favorable versus support and applications... IF KOMODO really goes gang busters that's why I wonder if a separate division might be set up or even be bought by someone else ? [Highly speculative of course.].

RED does a lot of really cool sh*t but the bottom line is not always the motivator.

Maybe over a ten years period they / RED may choose to close the gap on hybrid Global shutter / rolling shutter cameras or choose to do something completely different.

 

[David Rasberry]

The HYDROGEN project encompassed other cameras as well, not just cell phones and H4V formats + LEIA RED displays.

If you go through the patent literature there were some really interesting different camera designs and really interesting alternate interconnecting lens mounts etc. And several different imager ideas / cameras floated out there for larger future HYDROGEN ecosystem.

Also around the time there were initial exploratory discussions with Terry Gou and FOXCONN as well as other needs and some other really BIG moving parts (as big as it gets).

These are shifting sands on Global scale. Even the Foxconn plant in Wisconsin has been repurpose somewhat since then.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I think it would be super awesome IF RED continued to develop other globally sensored cameras [As that would be super helpful to our aims.] but as the RED Motto and Maxim states "Everything can and will change.". ].

Personally I don't see why RED would develop a globally shuttered camera ? (in the first place ? / per say ? ) Given various applications spaces and tradeoffs and needs for commercial broadcast and Film industry ?

After shooting global shutter cameras for the last 15 years, I fully understand why it is desirable, especially for fast movement and action cameras. 3-chip CCD video cameras were global shutter until the move to HD and larger single sensor formats. Digital still cameras with mechanical shutters too. Anyone who has suffered flash banding filming live events is going to be a big fan. Video camera rolling scan is nothing like a film camera's rolling shutter.

Sensor size and increasing resolution made global shutter video difficult and impractical from an engineering standpoint for a long time, thankfully that period is coming to an end.

 

[andrewhake]

Maybe a rig that enables you to use canon batteries while having a V-lock in place to create a hot-swap using the canon batteries as a source when changing V-Locks.

Or you could just hot swap the normal dual battery setup and literally record forever? Something like that would literally double the size of the camera.

I am sorry but 99% of the ideas suggested on this thread are completely ridiculous.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

Obviously what I'm saying is there is a basic design compromise or choice that has to be made.
So if you want globally shuttered camera then perhaps expect slightly diminished color space and DR and possibly slower shutter speeds (in some cases).

Jarred's already stated that there's no penalty for the global shutter mode on the Komodo.

RED does a lot of really cool sh*t but the bottom line is not always the motivator.

Quite true. I have a much higher end Red camera than I need because of that.

Still, a lot of what Red develops is determined by feedback from Red's customers...

 

[Eric Lange]

Jarred's already stated that there's no penalty for the global shutter mode on the Komodo.



Quite true. I have a much higher end Red camera than I need because of that.

Still, a lot of what Red develops is determined by feedback from Red's customers...

What Jarred means is there is no significant DR penalty between rolling shutter and Global shutter on KOMODO. (As you know). Or maybe any appreciable difference or any difference at all TBD.

But that does not mean arbitrarily or otherwise that the KOMODO will have the DR of Gemini (in one mode) or Helium (necessarily) or Montro VV etc.

Just trying to temper expectations a smidge / mild reality check (in a kind way), as the camera costs maybe $6500 -ish or in that range or less for some HYDROGEN "Peeps". Maybe under $5000 ?

I expect the imagery that Jarred and Bay come back with (and others) should be pretty spectacular, great locations, fantastic light and good talent in-front of and behind the camera + great lens choices + $.

I'm not holding out for amazeballs DR from KOMODO but that's the least of my wants given everything else KOMODO offers / enables that is unique and useful

 

[Eric Lange]

After shooting global shutter cameras for the last 15 years, I fully understand why it is desirable, especially for fast movement and action cameras. 3-chip CCD video cameras were global shutter until the move to HD and larger single sensor formats. Digital still cameras with mechanical shutters too. Anyone who has suffered flash banding filming live events is going to be a big fan. Video camera rolling scan is nothing like a film camera's rolling shutter.

Sensor size and increasing resolution made global shutter video difficult and impractical from an engineering standpoint for a long time, thankfully that period is coming to an end.

Absolutely...

+1,

"That period is coming to an end"

Hopefully / maybe.

It's gonna be super interesting to see basic test bed/ results for still and dynamic and Global versus Rolling AND the basic "FEEL" of the imagery and the different qualities Still and dynamic), textures and spectrum of attributes that the both modes can yield.

It could be one of the most multidimensional sets of tests that Phil Holland carries out. That's a big smorgasbord or just quick and dirty , suck and see, and everybody gets to collectively reconstruct a broad palate of capability for KOMODO.

It should be a ton of fun and hopefully more than a foot in the door for new frontiers.

 

[Robert Parkin]

There's a small chance that we're so used to rolling shutter artifacts that we may notice a bigger difference than expected!

As for Red using this technology in DSMC3 cameras, I'd be amazed if there wasn't an equivalent since directors will ultimately want the look to be consistent across shots, just like how you'd use the same glass throughout a production.

 

[Juan Francisco Calero]

There's a small chance that we're so used to rolling shutter artifacts that we may notice a bigger difference than expected!

As for Red using this technology in DSMC3 cameras, I'd be amazed if there wasn't an equivalent since directors will ultimately want the look to be consistent across shots, just like how you'd use the same glass throughout a production.

I don’t think anybody would miss the Rolling Shutter problems. But, anyways, this camera is supposed to work Global and Rolling Shutter, so you can always choose any of them

 

[Phil Holland]

Global Shutter is a solution to many common issues found in general filmmaking, which is why for so long so many have wanted it.

A quick pan with a skewed wall, wheels rotating, general image stability under extreme vibrations which even with post correction isn't always salvageable from a rolling shutter sensor, etc

At the same time it might not be the most desired by some filmmakers as film itself has a rolling shutter. This lends it's hand to the general character of the image.

I see a need for both really and certainly a louder roar for the desire for a rolling shutter. I think particularly in this camera space because there really hasn't been a solid compact cine solution as of yet.

Komodo will be many things to many people, but there's certain things it will excel at. That is one of them for sure. Any gimbal owner, likely literally every one of them will look hard at Komodo. Once they see it solves some of the common shot issues with that style of camera movement.

 

[Daniel Porto]

I don’t think anybody would miss the Rolling Shutter problems. But, anyways, this camera is supposed to work Global and Rolling Shutter, so you can always choose any of them

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU3evc5fEhM

 

[gabrielB]

Phil I think you wanted to start your first sentence with global shutter not rolling shutter.

 

[Phil Holland]

Heh. Corrected. Amazing. I need an editor. Replying to threads on my cell phone is not advised.