KOMODO....

[Björn Benckert]

Jarred, will there be the same kind of gyro data as for DSMC2?

Would love to test our little program with a Komodo handheld file, even if it was shot with the lens cap on... happy to sign a NDA.

 

[Adam Johnson]

Figured that might be the case. Didn’t see the official announcement for the sensor size. I know Jarred mentioned it’s “not 8K VV” in the beginning, I was thinking maybe 6K VV could be a possibility. S35 is still awesome at this price point for this full RED setup. Anxious for more details.

Not full frame.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Natural looking image properties are not related to film medium only but primarily to properties of human vision. Using that as a reference is not being "constrained by the past", it is harmonization of image properties with human visual apparatus.

This is what film has been doing for over a hundred years. Why re-invent the wheel trying to match digital color science to the human eye when there's so much that can fail in that process due to the human vision and brain interpretation being such a subjective and manipulated reference? Film has been doing it longer, it has gone through thousands if not millions of professional eyes trying to fine-tune it to perfection. To match up to film is to match up to the point of reference we are at in history and then we can build on from that. Why ditch that source and do it from scratch? Arri did it right with Alexa and that's why we're still seeing the same sensor from them even in their LF. While that's part marketing and business relation towards the top people and cinematographers in the industry, much of it also has to do with the actual image result you get from their cameras.

While there aren't many gains Alexa has over Red cameras, color science is definitely one of them. Instead of defending back and forth as fanboys do, I'd rather see companies and people actually looking at what is done right and what is done wrong, learning from that and building on top of that. The fact that we have lots of sensors and different looks from Red but Arri still has one sensor and one color science everyone is using speaks volumes about the consensus in that area. So maybe give credit where credit is due and look at what they did right. I'd love to see a Red with all the goods it gives you, while having the color image quality of Arri's cameras. Film as a reference point for color science is not an unreasonable request.

 

[David Rasberry]

This is what film has been doing for over a hundred years. Why re-invent the wheel trying to match digital color science to the human eye when there's so much that can fail in that process due to the human vision and brain interpretation being such a subjective and manipulated reference? Film has been doing it longer, it has gone through thousands if not millions of professional eyes trying to fine-tune it to perfection. To match up to film is to match up to the point of reference we are at in history and then we can build on from that. Why ditch that source and do it from scratch? Arri did it right with Alexa and that's why we're still seeing the same sensor from them even in their LF. While that's part marketing and business relation towards the top people and cinematographers in the industry, much of it also has to do with the actual image result you get from their cameras.

While there aren't many gains Alexa has over Red cameras, color science is definitely one of them. Instead of defending back and forth as fanboys do, I'd rather see companies and people actually looking at what is done right and what is done wrong, learning from that and building on top of that. The fact that we have lots of sensors and different looks from Red but Arri still has one sensor and one color science everyone is using speaks volumes about the consensus in that area. So maybe give credit where credit is due and look at what they did right. I'd love to see a Red with all the goods it gives you, while having the color image quality of Arri's cameras. Film as a reference point for color science is not an unreasonable request.

Film too is engineered to match the visual perception characteristics of the human eye. If you use film as a reference point, which film stock will you use? A modern digital camera can simulate many. It can also produce visual aesthetics and color that film can't.
As a separate medium, it deserves exploration on its own just to see what can be done.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Film too is engineered to match the visual perception characteristics of the human eye.

But that's my point, it's been doing it for over a hundred years with millions of professional eyes giving input. Not to match to film first and build on that is trying to re-inventing the wheel.

If you use film as a reference point, which film stock will you use? A modern digital camera can simulate many. It can also produce visual aesthetics and color that film can't.
As a separate medium, it deserves exploration on its own just to see what can be done.

Start with the most commonly used, maybe Kodak Vision3? Many stocks were developed with different goals in mind, but the primary ones aimed for balance. I rather see the use of different OLPFs as the digital equivalent of different stocks, while the "standard" is aimed for similar balance. My point is that the "exploration" should build upon previous knowledge, viewing our current color science as an exploration of its own just feels like ditching previous knowledge and doing that re-invention of the wheel. My point is that the whole debate about film versus digital is futile and irrelevant, we should take all that we know from film and apply to digital color science instead of going through years of unnecessary hurdles because we like to start "fresh".

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

This is what film has been doing for over a hundred years. Why re-invent the wheel trying to match digital color science to the human eye when there's so much that can fail in that process due to the human vision and brain interpretation being such a subjective and manipulated reference?

Because you are Human Being and use human eyes to experience colour.
It is not reinventing the wheel, it's optimizing the medium properties.

"So much can fail in the process" in the making of every highly complex thing.
And it does.

Film has been doing it longer, it has gone through thousands if not millions of professional eyes trying to fine-tune it to perfection. To match up to film is to match up to the point of reference we are at in history and then we can build on from that. Why ditch that source and do it from scratch? Arri did it right with Alexa and that's why we're still seeing the same sensor from them even in their LF. While that's part marketing and business relation towards the top people and cinematographers in the industry, much of it also has to do with the actual image result you get from their cameras. While there aren't many gains Alexa has over Red cameras, color science is definitely one of them. Instead of defending back and forth as fanboys do, I'd rather see companies and people actually looking at what is done right and what is done wrong, learning from that and building on top of that.

You're welcome.

 

[Antony Newman]

Wifi
+) I am guessing (hoping) that wireless has moved to 802.11ac IPv5.

RCP
+) Suggestion that the startup sequence for 3rd party wifi produces has an option Compressed version of sending all the RCP parameters over 6 large packets rather than 1100 distinct parm updates during login (login time would be at least 5 times faster)

GUI: Bottom line is : FPS : ISO : IRIS : SHUTTER : WB.
+) Do you think that 'FPS' and 'SHUTTER' should be grouped together?
+) 'FPS', 'ANGLE', 'SHUTTER' should all be grouped together. Even if Angle is represented graphically.
+) 'RESOLUTION' ("SENSOR" takes less space), 'COMPRESSION' ("RC"), and ISO work in concert for an informed setup choice and visual confirmation that nothing is amiss.
+) Reduce contrast of the titles to reduce apparent visual complexity (have a look at the GUI for INKontrol for comparison).
Beginners will be able to read the titles, experts have have a cleaner GUI as the titles don't jump out.
+) f/ and 1/ : Change to a size between this font and superscript

ISO graphic with linear ruler scale.
+) As 'ISO' is not far from '150' : It takes more time to distinguish data from label when scanning horizontally.
+) Do GUI test in which a fixed ISO label is above the magnifier (with slight transparency) : (this will avoid N copies of the word 'ISO' on the screen)
+) If a scale graphic are desired - would it make more sense for the indents (on top and bottom of the 'ruler') to be Log rather than linear?
+) "ISO 1280", "ISO 1600" ... : Scrolling Left and Right takes a lot more finger movement than if the list was vertical. (compare with INKontrol)
If list was vertical - it would likely also be possible to see the entire list of ISO's on screen at once with a Larger font size.
+) Where mixing data and 'ISO' label :" Suggest increasing contrast of Data over ISO label.

AJ

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

GUI: Bottom line is : FPS : ISO : IRIS : SHUTTER : WB.
+) Do you think that 'FPS' and 'SHUTTER' should be grouped together?

No.

You don't want 48 and 1/48 next to one another in this context because of visual similarity and accidental wrong choice.

If it was system logic sequence only, it would be
Iris > shutter > fps > iso > wb
or
iris > fps > shutter > iso > wb

Iris is likely to be most often used control for many so best to be in the centre and shutter/fps and iso/wb are separated due to overall UI visual balance and numerical resemblance and avoiding the need to make additional distinctions. Prioritized are on the left because you read from left to right.

If list was vertical - it would likely also be possible to see the entire list of ISO's on screen at once with a Larger font size.

Too much values stuffed make the touch UI fiddly, larger swipes and separations between values make it more practical.

It's been thought through.

It's practical, clear and uncluttered with a touch of organicity to make the creative tool feel less computer-like and sterile, with a cool hommage to film workflow.

 

[Colton John McLaughlin]

After such an eventful weekend (THANK YOU JARRED :emote_hippie, I am overjoyed, the question now is:

Will there be a package deal, with monitor, 2 x batteries, media, cage, and case? (maybe with the RF 28-70 f/2 as well?)

 

[Michael Hastings]

I know I'm easy to please, but I'm just so damn happy to see a dedicated power switch.

Me too

 

[David Collard]

Wow, can't believe I overlooked the obvious....a picture of a 2X Hawk Anamorphic on Komodo.
That is so fantastic! Thank you.

 

[Antony Newman]

Hrvoje,

My suggestion that FPS and Shutter are related and should be grouped together is because they need to be set in lock step.
If the eye has to pass over several unconnected dials - this does not aid direct comparison of FPS and Shutter.

Here is an example of a grouping which also include the Angle.

Also : Increased contrast shown here was applied to the data values over the labeling to more rapidly identify useful data.

<snip> You don't want 48 and 1/48 next to one another in this context because of visual similarity and accidental wrong choice.

AJ

 

[Antony Newman]

Vertical vs Horizontal sliding menus

If there are 16 values for ISO - and only three values can be displayed horizontally on the sliding ruler, it would take at least 5 complete screen swipes to be able to go from the lowest to the highest values. That (IMHO) is a lot of swiping.

(On the Komodo Screenshot Jarred image earlier in the thread- it displayed : ISO 1000, ISO 1280, ISO 1600.
The full range of ISO : 250, 320, 400, 500, 640, 800, 1000, 1280, 1600, 2000, 2500, 3200, 4000, 5000, 6400, 12800)

In the image below - I've created Horizontal and Vertical versions with similar sized fonts.
The Vertical sliding requires half the the amount of sliding, and has the SAME gap between the data values.

This (vertical menu) requires HALF the amount of finger movement to alter data values, and also displays TWICE as many options to the user in one time.

<snip> Too much values stuffed make the touch UI fiddly, larger swipes and separations between values make it more practical.

AJ

 

[Brian Boyer]

It's practical, clear and uncluttered with a touch of organicity to make the creative tool feel less computer-like and sterile, with a cool hommage to film.

I've said my piece on the Komodo UI. Jarred is clearly happy with it and I'm fairly certain the final look will remain pretty close to what we've already seen. This post isn't about that.

I do want to address UI design philosophy in a broader sense for those people who may think it has to be an "either, or" choice between flashy and utilitarian, or organic versus computer-like and sterile. Solid State Logic (SSL) is killing it with their Native Plugins. They encompass both contemporary and nostalgic UI design approaches and strike a very good balance between them. They've combined modern graphic design elements with the signature look of legacy SSL large format analog audio consoles dating back to the early 1980s. The design is graphics oriented where it's best served while maintaining an organic, tactile feel with certain photoreal elements. There's a clear nod to their analog roots wrapped in a thoroughly modern, computer-based package. They're cleanly laid out with subtle design cues that give them a very professional feel. They're pleasant to look at and easy on the eyes when working for extended periods.

To be clear, I'm not suggesting RED make Komodo look like this. These have SSL written all over them and it has taken them a while to get here. The previous incarnations of these plugins were much less refined (see below). I'm just giving people what I think are really good examples of how design doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Sometimes it's hard to have a discussion when people don't realize what's possible.

Here are some examples (sorry about the large sizes). If you want to see them in action you can check them out here: https://www.solidstatelogic.com/studio/ssl-native

Before:

After:

 

[muhammad]

Dual ISO? That would blow my socks off.

 

[Gregory Karydis]

I guess there can be as many different preferences when it comes to the UI as there are users in here.
So, this could potentially open the market for skins as a fellow REDuser mentioned before, or even for a customisable UI even... (sure, no pressure Matt!)

For myself, as I am known to use RED Cameras, Canon DSLRs and Mamiya Medium Format on the same day on the same project, I find the Komodo UI very much to my liking and I feel I can easily get used to it.

It helps distinguish Komodo as its own little beast.

 

[Han Vogen]

Personally, I’m not bothered by the UI. It seems functional and easy enough to navigate. I would prefer that time be spent on color science and stability.

 

[Gregory Karydis]

...I would prefer that time be spent on color science and stability.

Different departments, all working at full steam.

 

[Han Vogen]

Different departments, all working at full steam.

There will almost certainly be overlap. The folks designing the look of the UI are probably not the people that will be implementing that designs into the logic. And those engineers could be working on bugs and features.

 

[Jon Dishler]

I like the interface concept in that it scrolls across choices, reminds me of the function of an iPhone, rather than popping up with a bunch of discrete choices. Actually, I hope that this interface carries over to my Helium cameras.