KOMODO....

[jordan levy]

Why? S35 at 5k for a nicely oversampled 4k delivery is more Red’s philosophy.

because i work a lot in TV and the post producers wont let me shoot anything above 4k, like ever.
I just did a multiple camera sony venice job and i had to crop down to 4k.

as well in my commercial world, fx shoots yes, they sometimes let me shoot 5k, but any other spot i do they dont want anymore then 4k, everything is a 2k delivery, as well as a 1080 transcode that has to happen on set, or they are paying the DIT extra days.

 

[jordan levy]

You are worried in case it might be a raw recording cinema quality camera, in 6K resolution, standard cinematography S35 format, using off the shelf media, and with smallest size and lowest price in Red's product lineup ?

13 years ago we were ecstatic about a 4K tank 4 times the price and size and ten times the weight.

did i mention price and weight?
im talking about compatibility with work flows for most studios and production i work for, they are now 4k compliant, but anything over that they freak out. once i say 6k on an email , the producers call me freaking out about how much more it will cost them in time and post. so yeah, 6k would be nice to have, but anything smaller then s35 size sensor shooting 4k will not be a great tool to own for me and most people i know and have talked to about it. This spec alone is what is beefing up the venice into productions. DP's like it.

 

[Nick Morrison]

did i mention price and weight?
im talking about compatibility with work flows for most studios and production i work for, they are now 4k compliant, but anything over that they freak out. once i say 6k on an email , the producers call me freaking out about how much more it will cost them in time and post. so yeah, 6k would be nice to have, but anything smaller then s35 size sensor shooting 4k will not be a great tool to own for me and most people i know and have talked to about it. This spec alone is what is beefing up the venice into productions. DP's like it.

True. But if Komodo is 36mm wide (like Venice), that would make 4K s35 (like Venice).

Maybe its a baby Venice?

 

[jordan levy]

True. But if Komodo is 36mm wide (like Venice), that would make 4K s35 (like Venice).

Maybe its a baby Venice?

that would be great, im also hopeful that apparently it has 4k sdi out, if that's using the full sensor, then there we go!

 

[Michael Hastings]

because i work a lot in TV and the post producers wont let me shoot anything above 4k, like ever.
I just did a multiple camera sony venice job and i had to crop down to 4k.

as well in my commercial world, fx shoots yes, they sometimes let me shoot 5k, but any other spot i do they dont want anymore then 4k, everything is a 2k delivery, as well as a 1080 transcode that has to happen on set, or they are paying the DIT extra days.

Can't we assume that the 4K SDI output is scaled from the full sensor? And possibly/probably scaled 4K ProRes to the Cfast cards?

Can't work my way through the gajillion words in this thread - do we know the actual sensor size? Do we know if the mount is removable and older RED PL mounts will work?

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

I'm guessing that 6K scaled to 4K in camera will provide post with the 4K files they will accept.

Cheers - #19

 

[Phil Holland]

Can't we assume that the 4K SDI output is scaled from the full sensor? And possibly/probably scaled 4K ProRes to the Cfast cards?

Can't work my way through the gajillion words in this thread - do we know the actual sensor size? Do we know if the mount is removable and older RED PL mounts will work?

It has become a bit chattery hasn't it. But the on topic stuff is decent.

I'd say yes as to what comes out of the 4K SDI port. i.e. full sensor scaled to 4K, whatever resolution shot scaled or presented at 4K, likely pushing 2K if it in there as well.

I have an educated guess on the sensor size that I can extrapolate from the image, but it's sort of silly to push out FUD if it's not fact. I think it's safe to say it's at least Super 35mm and likely smaller than VV. So basically somewhere in there.

Lens Mount: It looks like Komodo is "one block" with nothing removable to me. But in this case you'd be using a Canon RF to PL Adapter (there's a few already available). You can pretty much adapt anything to RF sans E-Mount and Z-Mount. But literally almost everything else.

I would say safely that if you are using a bigger lens, like a Cooke or whatever, you'll 100% want some rod support. Most of the RF to PL Adapters I have seen have a 1/4"-20 thread to support the mount itself.

 

[Bastien Tribalat]

Can't we assume that the 4K SDI output is scaled from the full sensor? And possibly/probably scaled 4K ProRes to the Cfast cards?

Can't work my way through the gajillion words in this thread - do we know the actual sensor size? Do we know if the mount is removable and older RED PL mounts will work?

Jarred said on Instagram somewhere in the comments of one of his posts that it will record Redcode RAW.
I don't think it will record Prores on the CF Cards. It might be a situation of Redcode Only. (which is frankly fine : we are nearly in 2020, every NLE accepts Redcode and any decent workstation can work with 6K Redcode... I actually never had any problem with 4K, 5K or 6K Redcode even on a 2009 24 Inch Imac !)

As for the PL Mount : the RF mount on Komodo might not be removable BUT a RF to PL Mount adapter already exists.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Jarred said on Instagram somewhere in the comments of one of his posts that it will record Redcode RAW.
I don't think it will record Prores on the CF Cards. It might be a situation of Redcode Only. (which is frankly fine : we are nearly in 2020, every NLE accepts Redcode and any decent workstation can work with 6K Redcode... I actually never had any problem with 4K, 5K or 6K Redcode even on a 2009 24 Inch Imac !)

As for the PL Mount : the RF mount on Komodo might not be removable BUT a RF to PL Mount adapter already exists.

Bastien and Phil:

FYI
In anticipation of purchasing Komodo I bought the FotodioX Vizelex ND Throttle Lens Mount Adapter Compatible w/Arri PL Mount Lens To Canon RF Mount Camera - because when I googled PL to EOS-R it came up as $199 on B&H and others but $99 on the Walmart site. I thought maybe it was a mistake on the price but I ordered it and arrived a few days later for the $99 and it looks like a pretty solid piece, and it does have a 1/4-20 support tab on it. Ordered through the Walmart site but it ships directly from Fotodiox.

The variable ND works fine to my eye (I don't have an RF mount camera to test it on yet) but I have never used variable ND and was wondering if there are drawbacks to the variable ND or behind the lens variable ND.

Also just wondering if my Sony Cinealta PL lenses (original plastic version for 35,50,85 and metal 20, 25, 135) that I got a great deal on like new B-stock will vignette on Komodo full sensor.



My question was regarding whether I should hang on to the RED PL and Nikon mounts if they work on Komodo or just sell them now.

 

[Phil Holland]

anticipation

Very much the same moves here. I haven't purchased power or memory yet, that's the easy stuff. But I grabbed various lens adapters for RF Mount in anticipation. This is actually a double dip for me as this is preparing for Komodo, but also an upcoming Canon Mirrorless camera.

It's been a few years since I last used those Cinealta Primes, but they were going for a steal on the used market for a minute. Highly underrated if we are talking the newer version of them. I think we can assume they'll be a format within Komodo that they all will cover just fine if not the whole sensor itself.

I'm a little different than Soderbergh's POV on Komodo. Monstro is very much going to be my main whip on productions obviously, but Komodo is going to be more about what I can do with it. I'm certain you can outfit it as an A-Cam, I mean that's what he did really, and that will be valuable for all sorts of shoots even for me. But I'll be doing very weird things with it and also be exploiting it's form factor towards setups.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Very much the same moves here. I haven't purchased power or memory yet, that's the easy stuff. But I grabbed various lens adapters for RF Mount in anticipation. This is actually a double dip for me as this is preparing for Komodo, but also an upcoming Canon Mirrorless camera.

It's been a few years since I last used those Cinealta Primes, but they were going for a steal on the used market for a minute. Highly underrated if we are talking the newer version of them. I think we can assume they'll be a format within Komodo that they all will cover just fine if not the whole sensor itself.

I'm a little different than Soderbergh's POV on Komodo. Monstro is very much going to be my main whip on productions obviously, but Komodo is going to be more about what I can do with it. I'm certain you can outfit it as an A-Cam, I mean that's what he did really, and that will be valuable for all sorts of shoots even for me. But I'll be doing very weird things with it and also be exploiting it's form factor towards setups.

At first I was a little blasé about Komodo - 6K when I already had 8K with my Epic-W - but as I thought about how I keep wanting and moving toward smaller setups (cameras, drones, etc.) I decided to sell my E-W and move on to Komodo (It also makes a lot of sense for me to have latest body style to make/sell underwater housings). Excited to see how compact I can get the U/W system. With DSMC and DSMC2 the size and all of the different battery and module options dictated a housing with an internal diameter of 8" - a bit larger than absolutely required for the smallest possible package - but kind of had to make larger to account for various configurations. Might be able to go much smaller with the base form factor of Komodo being so small and compact inline batteries.

I haven't used them much but I'm impressed with the Cinealta primes (I can't really go wrong since my B-stock price was less than even the el cheapo used prices on Ebay and they appear brand new/unused.) There are obvious potential durability issues with the plastic versions BUT they are so much lighter than the metal versions that they are pretty nice for handheld or drone work. One of these days I will take them over to my friends rental house and project them - I suspect they will optically be close to ultra primes.

 

[Michael Hastings]

My take on Komodo capabilities

My take on Komodo capabilities

BTW

I have a feeling RED is going to pull out all the stops on Komodo and give us as much as the can for the price, even if it might annoy some owners of the other cameras in the line. We saw with the unified DSMC2 lineup that RED is aware of the price/performance competition out there and committed to staying ahead of the curve.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Can't we assume that the 4K SDI output is scaled from the full sensor?

Well if it wasn't it would be an autogoal.

Stills cameras have full sensor 6K scale to 4K out.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

Some of us here have unrealistic expectations, Full frame (24x36) is a very high-end feature in the Red line up, Komodo will certainly be around S35 if not smaller (remember the Raven)..
As for the frame rate, let's not forget the fact that we are discussing a 6k$ camera, it just can NOT be a 6k/120fps Vista Vision beast, not at that price.
6k/30fps and maybe 4k/60fps in cropped mode is what we'll gonna get, i hope, because high specs at a low price means low sensor quality, which leads to my second point, probably the most important and disregarded element..
"The nature of the sensor".

Is that a real Red sensor with Red color science and high dynamic range or a lowered version of the already existing ones?
Is that even a Red sensor?
These are the real questions to me, at 6k/24fps, Does this camera have the guts and the image quality of an A cam?
If yes, then we have a winner beast here, no matter the aggressiveness of the competition (that i admit to be scary)..

Enjoy your day all!

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Will Komodo come out soon?...or will this be another "will show it at NAB 2020 and hope to release fall 2020?" ;-)

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Some of us here have unrealistic expectations, Full frame (24x36) is a very high-end feature in the Red line up, Komodo will certainly be around S35 if not smaller (remember the Raven)..
As for the frame rate, let's not forget the fact that we are discussing a 6k$ camera, it just can NOT be a 6k/120fps Vista Vision beast, not at that price.
6k/30fps and maybe 4k/60fps in cropped mode is what we'll gonna get, i hope, because high specs at a low price means low sensor quality, which leads to my second point, probably the most important and disregarded element..
"The nature of the sensor".

It's a Red sensor, it's already stated, but expectations are also not unrealistic if you look at the competition this camera is under.

6K 50fps is what the Pocket 6K can do for half the price. If Komodo only does 6K at 30fps, it sure needs the same good DR as the other Red's while having a larger sensor than the Pocket. Frame rates matter, sensor sizes matter, noise handling matters and many competitors are catching up at lower price-points.

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

It's a Red sensor, it's already stated, but expectations are also not unrealistic if you look at the competition this camera is under.

6K 50fps is what the Pocket 6K can do for half the price. If Komodo only does 6K at 30fps, it sure needs the same good DR as the other Red's while having a larger sensor than the Pocket. Frame rates matter, sensor sizes matter, noise handling matters and many competitors are catching up at lower price-points.

I do have to agree. Times have changed with much fiercer competition and much more options now. I think expectations are high for a reason....

 

[Mendes Nabil]

It's a Red sensor, it's already stated, but expectations are also not unrealistic if you look at the competition this camera is under.

6K 50fps is what the Pocket 6K can do for half the price. If Komodo only does 6K at 30fps, it sure needs the same good DR as the other Red's while having a larger sensor than the Pocket. Frame rates matter, sensor sizes matter, noise handling matters and many competitors are catching up at lower price-points.

You are missing a point my friend, Komodo ins not under, its specs are.
Basically, we have "High specs/Low image quality VS Low specs/High image quality", if you need high specs at a cheap price, you'll not find it here, but if you are looking for high image quality, you're on the right boat.

Still i totally understand your point as the "High image quality / Low image quality" frontier is getting dangerously blurred by the fierce and agressive competition.

Time will tell i guess,

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You are missing a point my friend, Komodo ins not under, its specs are.
Basically, we have "High specs/Low image quality VS Low specs/High image quality", if you need high specs at a cheap price, you'll not find it here, but if you are looking for high image quality, you're on the right boat.

Still i totally understand your point as the "High image quality / Low image quality" frontier is getting dangerously blurred by the fierce and agressive competition.

Time will tell i guess,

A camera is more than its sensor. While image quality is usually better with Red, a few of the cameras competing in this price range does not have bad images at all. The biggest difference is that there are far more bad cinematographers and vloggers with terrible LUT's out there making these cheaper cameras look like shit, but the basic images you get from them handle well when you know what you're doing.

I've said this before, Komodo is a cheap Red, but an expensive mid-tier option of cameras. And if it doesn't meet expectations of what others bring to the table, then a decent image quality won't be enough. For example, if you can't get good result out of a Pocket 6K, then you aren't really a good photographer/cinematographer.

These are new times in the camera market and there are basic features expected on the market. The images from Komodo needs to be miles ahead in quality if they're the only weapon against the competition, but that would mean being on par or better than the current lineup of Red cameras, which might be a problem for Red. So, if Red's gonna "win" this mid-tier race, Komodo need to have good image quality AND compete in features others have.

If I would choose reasonable specs, I'd either have a full-frame 6K Komodo at a compression rate of 6:1 minimum at 30 fps FF or a s35mm+ (like Gemini and Dragon) at 50-60 fps FF 6K. Going under that would be hard to justify for its price-point when we look at what the others bring to the table. If we look at the Pocket 6K, it's lacking in stops compared to most Red cameras, it's lacking in practicality and compatibility in post, but it has 50 fps 6K, decent RAW handling and good enough image quality for professional delivery. If adding double its price to reach the presumed price-point of Komodo, then I would say increasing stops, better compatibility in post through R3D workflows and Red's image quality standards would be what justifies the increased price. We have a good baseline for what cameras under a certain price can do today, so that is a good guide towards what is reasonable for the market, if under-delivering on that, it will end up like the Hydrogen I'm afraid.

 

[Bérenger Brillante]

Can't we assume that the 4K SDI output is scaled from the full sensor? And possibly/probably scaled 4K ProRes to the Cfast cards?

Can't work my way through the gajillion words in this thread - do we know the actual sensor size? Do we know if the mount is removable and older RED PL mounts will work?

Jarred said back then that DSMC² bodies had the choice of Prores or 4k output, and that at the time, 4k output wasn't relevant as there were no 4k displays available, so they went Prores.
For that reason, I don't think there will be Prores in camera as there is a 4k output this time.

But then, there is no HDMI output either. If there is no proprietary output on the brain, it probably means there is just enough horsepower left for internal Prores.
But then also, considering the size of the brain.... not sure.

But I'd rather take one pogo output on top to be honest.

...
...

Just release the specs boys !