KOMODO....

[Björn Benckert]

Unfortunately, this is the reality of owning equipment in this market place.

I know the feeling.

Imaging buying an Alexa Mini 6 months ago right before the Mini LF was announced.

This stuff happens.

The reality is you invest in the tools you need, but clients should hire you for how good YOU are.

It's a tough balance I know.

I dont know, Find it difficult to compare the alexa mini to hydrogen. Only one of the two got the worst gadget of the year award.

Hydrogen was a pretty big mistake, a huge unheld promise if you ask me. I hope Red learned something from it. I hope they dont make this camera into something that needs a hydrogen or hydrogen 2 to work. They should do it like dji does with DJIGo app and make all smart devices work as a screen, interface,editor etc. Dji does it for spark and mavic and inspire perfectly. If red limit their future cameras only to work with red phones they loose as I see it.

So better they make a camera phone app instead of a phone if you ask me. Sure if they make a connector for the hydrogen thats fine but stupid if they hold iphones and other phones out.

Using phones / pads as screens and interface is the way of the future. You can not beat the price or built in 5G in the screen and all the data power that the modern phones have with a pro camera display.

 

[Phil Holland]

Just a curious question to the lot of you.

We know it's 6K, don't know the format size. I'm hoping at least S35 or S35+, don't want Academy 35 or smaller. It makes me sad face.

But the question I'm most curious about is:

At max resolution 6K what frame rates are you hoping for out of a <$5K (if you own a Hydrogen, $?,??? if you don't) camera micro digital cinema camera?

24fps? 30fps? 48fps? 60fps? Eleventy fps? PAL peeps, I know you're going to chime in

We can likely assume whatever the top speed is at max res, 5K and 4K will be higher FPS.

 

[Savannah Miller]

Considering the latest Blackmagic release, I'm guessing everyone is going to want 60fps minimum. Eleventy fps would be ideal.

 

[Gabriel Scindian]

Already ordered mines

 

[Neil Abeynayake]

Under $5k if you own a Hydrogen apparently.

That is pretty freggin' stupid especially when Blackmagic is releasing the same 6K resolution in RAW format that is pretty much identical to RED's existing workflow at $2495.00 with a built-in 5" monitor.

And this comment comes from a die-hard RED camera and a couple of Hydrogen (Aluminum/Titanium) owner.

 

[Misha Engel]

Just a curious question to the lot of you.

We know it's 6K, don't know the format size. I'm hoping at least S35 or S35+, don't want Academy 35 or smaller. It makes me sad face.

But the question I'm most curious about is:

At max resolution 6K what frame rates are you hoping for out of a <$5K (if you own a Hydrogen, $?,??? if you don't) camera micro digital cinema camera?

24fps? 30fps? 48fps? 60fps? Eleventy fps? PAL peeps, I know you're going to chime in

We can likely assume whatever the top speed is at max res, 5K and 4K will be higher FPS.

Upto 60 fps for 4k-DCI delivery (meaning 5.7k bayer at 60 fps).
When it can produce 14 stops of usable DR (at a SNR of 2), the komodo is a winner, otherwise it will have a hard time.

 

[Savannah Miller]

That is pretty freggin' stupid especially when Blackmagic is releasing the same 6K resolution in RAW format that is pretty much identical to RED's existing workflow at $2495.00 with a built-in 5" monitor.

And this comment comes from a die-hard RED camera and a couple of Hydrogen (Aluminum/Titanium) owner.

I think $5K for a RED camera is not to bad for a custom-sensor 6K camera. It has a few differences compared to the Pocket 6K and possibly fixes a few complaints. Rotating screen, battery life (not sure about this one), OLPF/IR Cut, etc.

At $7K without hydrogen, if that's the case then it's a bit high, but not unreasonable.

Dynamic range will be the most awaited thing to see, because while the Pocket Cam has pretty good DR, I'm sure most people would like more.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Just a curious question to the lot of you.

We know it's 6K, don't know the format size. I'm hoping at least S35 or S35+, don't want Academy 35 or smaller. It makes me sad face.

But the question I'm most curious about is:

At max resolution 6K what frame rates are you hoping for out of a <$5K (if you own a Hydrogen, $?,??? if you don't) camera micro digital cinema camera?

24fps? 30fps? 48fps? 60fps? Eleventy fps? PAL peeps, I know you're going to chime in

We can likely assume whatever the top speed is at max res, 5K and 4K will be higher FPS.

Yeah I hope its S35 or S35+ too.

Im guessing 48fps at 6K.

And higher fps at 5K and 4K. Maybe 96fps?

 

[Phil Holland]

Upto 60 fps for 4k-DCI delivery (meaning 5.7k bayer at 60 fps).
When it can produce 14 stops of usable DR (at a SNR of 2), the komodo is a winner, otherwise it will have a hard time.

Some weekend reading:
https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/exclusive-interview-reds-sensors-resolution/

That's an interview with Graeme from a bit ago in which he moderately deep dives, but mostly hints about topics surrounding ideal resolutions for Bayer Pattern Sensors.

For resolution purists, traditionally you ideally want to have somewhere between 71% to 80% over provisioning of resolution towards your delivery resolution. i.e. 4096 / .80 = 5120.

Outside of the Bayer Pattern there's things like the OLPF/Anti-Aliasing Filter that will impede on potential captured resolution very much on purpose to ideally avoid aliasing and moire via potential high frequency detail, which is a real issue in production, post production, and VFX.

To highlight an often overlooked part of IPP2, there is a new demosiac algorithm at play and you'll notice a slight improvement in rendering captured detail over the previous gen. One of the benefits of REDCODE RAW really is it's actually raw data, though done through a variable wavelet compression scheme. So those particular advancements in color science and image processing can be discovered, unlocked, and put into place. In the RED world even based on the general resolution scheme the cameras deploy you can observe they are much closer to an ideal 80% oversampling towards the finishing resolution. More so now after IPP2 new jazz.


That said, there's nothing wrong with shooting 4K for 4K, many people do it. I personally shoot 5K and 5K+ for a 4K finish and that's my preferred workflow with 8K for 4K being rather ideal on many levels in my pea sized brain. And I'm not even getting into the various scaling algorithms you can tap into when developing your image.

 

[Samir Patel]

Just a curious question to the lot of you.

We know it's 6K, don't know the format size. I'm hoping at least S35 or S35+, don't want Academy 35 or smaller. It makes me sad face.

But the question I'm most curious about is:

At max resolution 6K what frame rates are you hoping for out of a <$5K (if you own a Hydrogen, $?,??? if you don't) camera micro digital cinema camera?

24fps? 30fps? 48fps? 60fps? Eleventy fps? PAL peeps, I know you're going to chime in

We can likely assume whatever the top speed is at max res, 5K and 4K will be higher FPS.

6K/48or50fps a minimum requirement given the recent developments.

 

[John Brennick]

That is pretty freggin' stupid especially when Blackmagic is releasing the same 6K resolution in RAW format that is pretty much identical to RED's existing workflow at $2495.00 with a built-in 5" monitor.

And this comment comes from a die-hard RED camera and a couple of Hydrogen (Aluminum/Titanium) owner.

While I wouldn't say "I sure am glad it's more expensive than the BM 6k...", I will say that while it might be more expensive, there's something to be said for being in the ecosystem that has (according to jarred in a FB posting), it's a sensor designed by Red. The Red color science has become one that has separated itself and become one that many of reputable DP's/Directors seek out. I have a BMPCC4K and that thing is a beast for $1200, however there's something just beautiful about the Red colors and the ease of use of Redcine-X. For me, thats pretty exciting. So while I'll agree it may be the "same 6K resolution in RAW", I'm still excited to have something in that size in the flavor Red. Not saying I completely disagree with you, I'm just saying it's not HORRENDOUS.

 

[David Rasberry]

I think $5K for a RED camera is not to bad for a custom-sensor 6K camera. It has a few differences compared to the Pocket 6K and possibly fixes a few complaints. Rotating screen, battery life (not sure about this one), OLPF/IR Cut, etc.

At $7K without hydrogen, if that's the case then it's a bit high, but not unreasonable.

Dynamic range will be the most awaited thing to see, because while the Pocket Cam has pretty good DR, I'm sure most people would like more.

The $7k price being thrown around is what I mentioned for a complete entry level package, Komodo and phone with some lenses, media, batteries, essential accessories. That's about what I have in my Bolex kit. About the most I can justify budget wise for a serious hobby camera.
I hope well underl $5k for the Komodo alone, plus the cost of the phone keeping it under $6k.

There is more to true value than initial price. BM sold thousands of the original 1080p pocket cams at $995 or less, compared to $3995 for my 2K DCI D16 512K version. Five years in my D16 is still functioning flawlessly and used ones if you can find one sell for close to original purchase price. There were less than a 1000 total made. I'd venture to say that a third or more of the pocket cams that old are already in a landfill. It was not a very robust camera.

 

[Nick Morrison]

The $7k price being thrown around is what I mentioned for a complete entry level package, Komodo and phone with some lenses, media, batteries, essential accessories. That's about what I have in my Bolex kit. About the most I can justify budget wise for a serious hobby camera.
I hope well underl $5k for the Komodo alone, plus the cost of the phone keeping it under $6k.

There is more to true value than initial price. BM sold thousands of the original 1080p pocket cams at $995 or less, compared to $3995 for my 2K DCI D16 512K version. Five years in my D16 is still functioning flawlessly and used ones if you can find one sell for close to original purchase price. There were less than a 1000 total made. I'd venture to say that a third or more of the pocket cams that old are already in a landfill. It was not a very robust camera.

The Komodo will probably be $6-8K.

Shooting package probably $10K.

It's not going to be a hobby cam.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Dynamic range will be the most awaited thing to see, because while the Pocket Cam has pretty good DR, I'm sure most people would like more.

Ok, I’m back to briefly weigh in on dynamic range again.

From what I’ve observed over the last 5 or 6 years of reading comments all over the internets, when people say they’d like more DR, they obviously see the benefit of wider DR in total, but what they REALLY mean is more overexposure latitude, as I’ve mostly seen it said when lamenting how soon highlights clip.

Counting total stops can be misleading in that those stops aren’t evenly distributed - they almost always end up below middle gray for any particular ISO rating.

This usually means that many new sensors clip at nearly the same light intensity as the generation before it, at any given ISO rating.

As has been said before, there are several ways to mitigate that but, usually, when cameras go from 13 to 14 to 15 stops, they’re all going to still only give you 6-6.5 stops of overexposure latitude, with most of the increase in DR going below middle gray.

If people are looking for new sensors to clip later at, say, ISO 800 than whatever their current camera does, they’re more than likely going to be disappointed, even if the claim is 14 or 15 stops of total DR.

 

[Mike P.]

The Komodo will probably be $6-8K.

Shooting package probably $10K.

It's not going to be a hobby cam.

And see, this is why I'm saying competition is fierce in this segment; lets round it out to be ~$7.5k shootable... Even at 16 stops DR, and r3dcode, if its "only" s35, I don't know who would opt for one instead of, say, a pocket 6k for $2.5k outside of RED die-hards. As someone who recently (this week -- facepalm) got a Pocket 4k, I am blown away by how it handles. Functionally it's super easy, and image-wise, IMO it's better than Raven (despite being less DR and framerates.... P4k is way sharper sans OLPF). At 800ISO it's more than -6/+6, which means it's contrast carries much better into the high-end. I almost feel bad for every other ~4k raw camera available.

That said, if Komodo has Dual Pixel AF and/or lasts a couple hours on a single LP-E6, that becomes incredibly beneficial/unique (especially in a pre-existing RED line-up.)

At max resolution 6K what frame rates are you hoping for out of a <$5K (if you own a Hydrogen, $?,??? if you don't) camera micro digital cinema camera?

24fps? 30fps? 48fps? 60fps? Eleventy fps? PAL peeps, I know you're going to chime in

Depends on sensor size. If it's FF35, 50fps would be great. At s35, I'd hope for something that basically obsoletes Raven/Scarlet-W/Dragon-X. Otherwise, MavoLF fills the FF35 void and Pocket 6k fills the S35 void. Knee-jerk reaction from REDusers is "Oh shit, a $7.5k 6k RED! Amazing!", but after the dust settles, where does it fit in the landscape of available cameras?

(Note: Not to muddy my response, but bare in mind, technically s35 50fps = FF35 50fps with a focal reducer, and there are some available for RF mount... point being, it's a fine-line, but RED would invariably have to cannibalize Raven/SW/DX to get there.)

 

[Dan Kanes]

I think at $2495 Red could sell a LOT of Komodos.

Probably more Komodos than Red would want to sell even maybe.

Could become more of a liability almost at that volume level.

Baller move to license that canon RF mount if that's what happened.

 

[jamesbridges]

Just a curious question to the lot of you.

We know it's 6K, don't know the format size. I'm hoping at least S35 or S35+, don't want Academy 35 or smaller. It makes me sad face.

But the question I'm most curious about is:

At max resolution 6K what frame rates are you hoping for out of a <$5K (if you own a Hydrogen, $?,??? if you don't) camera micro digital cinema camera?

24fps? 30fps? 48fps? 60fps? Eleventy fps? PAL peeps, I know you're going to chime in

We can likely assume whatever the top speed is at max res, 5K and 4K will be higher FPS.

At least 6K@50fps

 

[Savannah Miller]

Ok, I’m back to briefly weigh in on dynamic range again.

From what I’ve observed over the last 5 or 6 years of reading comments all over the internets, when people say they’d like more DR, they obviously see the benefit of wider DR in total, but what they REALLY mean is more overexposure latitude, as I’ve mostly seen it said when lamenting how soon highlights clip.

Counting total stops can be misleading in that those stops aren’t evenly distributed - they almost always end up below middle gray for any particular ISO rating.

This usually means that many new sensors clip at nearly the same light intensity as the generation before it, at any given ISO rating.

As has been said before, there are several ways to mitigate that but, usually, when cameras go from 13 to 14 to 15 stops, they’re all going to still only give you 6-6.5 stops of overexposure latitude, with most of the increase in DR going below middle gray.

If people are looking for new sensors to clip later at, say, ISO 800 than whatever their current camera does, they’re more than like going to be disappointed, even if the claim is 14 or 15 stops of total DR.

That's what I mean to say. Pocket 4K at ISO 1000 is not bad, but I find the Ursa Mini Pro has better overexposure latitude, especially at 800 or 1600. Anything above ISO 1000 on the pocket when using the first gain stage is a bit noisy.

 

[Scott Balkum]

Just a curious question to the lot of you.

We know it's 6K, don't know the format size. I'm hoping at least S35 or S35+, don't want Academy 35 or smaller. It makes me sad face.

But the question I'm most curious about is:

At max resolution 6K what frame rates are you hoping for out of a <$5K (if you own a Hydrogen, $?,??? if you don't) camera micro digital cinema camera?

24fps? 30fps? 48fps? 60fps? Eleventy fps? PAL peeps, I know you're going to chime in

We can likely assume whatever the top speed is at max res, 5K and 4K will be higher FPS.

I'd like to see 6K 60fps, just to 1 up BM. 4K @ 120fps would be a great spot too. Oh, and 480fps.....just because you asked.

 

[David Rasberry]

The Komodo will probably be $6-8K.

Shooting package probably $10K.

It's not going to be a hobby cam.

Depends on how serious you are about your hobby. :smile5: