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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

KOMODO....

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ryanpostas said:
This looks like a Canon RF mount to me... if it is, can we expect one for Helium as well!??
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Pretty much anything shallower than a Leica M-Mount is not possible on DSMC or DSMC2 brains.
 
Mathias Erichsen said:
So... are we looking at a few weeks or many months before Komodo is released? Really hope you’ll be able to match Z-Cam’s October release of their new S35 and FF 6K cameras! :)
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Mathias I have no inside track on delivery but I did reach out to Red as I have a large project in October that a small B camera alongside Monstros would have been very handy. The response was that the Beta Komodo was not yet ready for such work. This would point to a delivery time not anytime soon but who knows?
 
Phil Holland said:
Pretty much anything shallower than a Leica M-Mount is not possible on DSMC or DSMC2 brains.
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Phil Holland said:
Pretty much anything shallower than a Leica M-Mount is not possible on DSMC or DSMC2 brains.
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This, in my opinion, was a design oversight of DSMC2 (I said as much in pre-Launch threads).

RED’s interchangeable mount distance should’ve been made substantially smaller (<18mm, instead of the current ~21mm) to allow for mirrorless mounts, focal reducers, internal ND mounts, etc. Could have even sold a “shim” adapter to make DSMC1 mounts backwards compatible. Kinefinity really nailed it in this department (and also in power consumption... and weight)... But I digress.
 
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Mike P. said:
This, in my opinion, was a design oversight of DSMC2 (I said as much in pre-Launch threads).

RED’s interchangeable mount distance should’ve been made substantially smaller (<18mm, instead of the current ~21mm) to allow for mirrorless mounts, focal reducers, internal ND mounts, etc. Could have even sold a “shim” adapter to make DSMC1 mounts backwards compatible. Kinefinity really nailed it in this department (and also in power consumption... and weight)... But I digress.
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Couldn't find anything you wrote surrounding that topic that far back, i.e. 2014/2015.

But......

DSMC2 Release Date = 2015, likely developed the previous 2013/2014 years.

Sony E-Mount Release Date (and very specifically the very first 3rd party cameras to use E-Mount) = Released in 2013 (prior, only Sony cameras used this mount and interestingly mainly APS-C) and Sony really backed the play with the A9 in 2017 which also led to the Venice having the mount that same year.

Canon RF Mount Release Date = 2018


It's extremely difficult to design an entire ecosystem around lens mounts that don't exist yet.

I'm actually wholeheartedly shocked we can use Leica-M mount glass to any degree.

Oooooh. And the spicier one. Interchangeable Lens Mounts are indeed a thing RED made viable in cinema cameras, though not the most ideal for motion picture work, it's nice to go small when you can. Hell it's one of the reasons I bought into the ecosystem initially as I saved up for PL glass and rented before I could.

The real, very real question is; now that shallower mounts exist and are becoming a standard, what will RED support in the world of DSMC3. Komodo seems to be it's own unique thing and if we're all correct on saying that's an RF Mount, that's good news. I truly don't think we'll be getting E-Mount due to a variety of reasons however.

RF is early days still, but shortly you'll have a bunch of neato f/1.2 primes and f/2 zooms as well as all those adapters with built in ND, Polas, etc. already being here. And to Canon's credit, they've introduced some new stuff with this new mount that might be worth tapping into actually. They weren't the fastest to the mirrorless game (and I'm still waiting on the new body that hits my spectrum), but I do applaud that innovation.
 
Phil Holland said:
DSMC2 Release Date = 2015, likely developed the previous 2013/2014 years.

Sony E-Mount Release Date (and very specifically the very first 3rd party cameras to use E-Mount) = Released in 2013 (prior, only Sony cameras used this mount and interestingly mainly APS-C) and Sony really backed the play with the A9 in 2017 which also led to the Venice having the mount that same year.

Canon RF Mount Release Date = 2018
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Ayyyy, I see the picture you're trying to create, but c'mon...

GH1 = 2009 (likely developed 1-2 years prior)
GH2 = 2010
DSMC1 = 2011 (proved interchangeable mounts in cinema cameras wasn't just viable, but a new standard)
BMCC/Pocket = 2012 (likely developed 1-2 years prior)
Speedboosters = 2013 (likely developed 1-2 years prior)
FS700 = 2013 (likely developed 1-2 years prior)
A7s = 2013 (likely developed 1-2 years prior)
Motion Mount = 2013
KineMini/KineMax = 2014 (likely 1-2 years prior)
FS7 = 2014 (likely developed 1-2 years prior)

That's a lot of momentum building prior to your estimated DSMC2 dev time. Turning point for shallow-mirrorless was ~2013; by that point Sony all but dropped the F5/F55 and was going entirely shallow-flange, everyone was talking interchangeable/adaptable mounts, and speedboosters started cropping up for everything that was mirrorless. I expected RED to be doing the same to stay ahead of the curve in the cinema space (since, digital cinema cameras are effectively "mirrorless" anyway, so why not make them universally adaptable moving forward?)

It's extremely difficult to design an entire ecosystem around lens mounts that don't exist yet.
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Which makes designing one that is as shallow as possible to be all-encompassing/adaptable (after proving how valuable that was with DSMC1's ability to do it with standard mounts of 2011 -- EF, F, PL, Leica-M) even more of an obvious choice *circa 2013* when the mirrorless tides changed. Hence why it seemed like such an oversight when it was left out two years later in *2015*.

Oooooh. And the spicier one. Interchangeable Lens Mounts are indeed a thing RED made viable in cinema cameras, though not the most ideal for motion picture work, it's nice to go small when you can. Hell it's one of the reasons I bought into the ecosystem initially as I saved up for PL glass and rented before I could.
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Yup, exactly (see above). Which is why I think it was reasonable to expect them to take it a step further and beat Sony to the punch (they didn't).

The real, very real question is; now that shallower mounts exist and are becoming a standard, what will RED support in the world of DSMC3. Komodo seems to be it's own unique thing and if we're all correct on saying that's an RF Mount, that's good news. I truly don't think we'll be getting E-Mount due to a variety of reasons however.

RF is early days still, but shortly you'll have a bunch of neato f/1.2 primes and f/2 zooms as well as all those adapters with built in ND, Polas, etc. already being here. And to Canon's credit, they've introduced some new stuff with this new mount that might be worth tapping into actually. They weren't the fastest to the mirrorless game (and I'm still waiting on the new body that hits my spectrum), but I do applaud that innovation.
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So wait, on one hand, you're saying 2 years of development (well, 2~6years of mirrorless becoming increasingly popular and having obvious advantages) wasn't enough time for RED to realize it'd be a good idea to make their interchangeable mount shallower in DSMC2, yet using RF in a product about to ship this year (RF which isn't even a year old yet) was plenty of time? Don't get me wrong, while it'll be nice in DSMC3, it would have been better had DSMC2 been shallow as well, so you could be using all that spicy RF glass as soon as they dropped this year (and for only the price of a $700 mount!)

Anyway, yes, DSMC3's IM will likely be shallower; at this point they need to catch up to the rest of the industry. And yes, Komodo points to that. IMO, the IM should be just deep enough to fit an OLPF between the sensor and the outer shell... Then they can create a RF Motion Mount for global shutter and/or NDs in DSMC3 if they need to, or release a m43 mount for a DSMC3 "Raven", or get some REDucers going, etc.
 
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Phil Holland said:
Pretty much anything shallower than a Leica M-Mount is not possible on DSMC or DSMC2 brains.
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I should have realized that Red would never have used the RF mount. It looks almost the same as the EF mount, and it's easy to make assumptions based on little data. So from what I can tell, the Komodo has the EF mount, just like the Raven does.
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
I should have realized that Red would never have used the RF mount. It looks almost the same as the EF mount, and it's easy to make assumptions based on little data. So from what I can tell, the Komodo has the EF mount, just like the Raven does.
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You're still not going to make it as a detective.

The point your making above is indeed the point to likely produce Komodo using an RF mount btw. And we can speculate as to what the DSMC3 landscape will be.

And to the point of the "catching up with the rest of the industry", the only digital cinema camera to date that features a shallower mount with a cinematically inclined sensor size is the Venice of which Sony owns and they created the E-Mount standard that is used as well as manufacturing lenses for that ecosystem.

MFT is something I don't think RED will ever focus on. The cameras get used, but nobody is "filming" with them on notable jobs, though I've seen them dutifully deployed here and there. If you're filming an episodic, doc, or feature; it's likely not the first choice outside of staying super nimble.

As for E-Mount, the 2nd gen A7 and A bodies around 2014/2015 is when Sony backed their play mainly which was amplified greatly in 2017. Everybody and their brother's cousin bought E-Mount cameras in that area of time and that has led to the desire for shorter flange in the cinema world. A useful capability in an industry that the vast majority of filming needs is serviced by PL and EF mount to this very day.

It's still a growing trend and we have yet to see what the rest of the industry is going to do in regards to any of this outside of Sony when it comes to digital cinema cameras.


And just to reiterate the advice I've been giving camera and lens manufacturers for about 6+ years now, we need a PL-like standard in the 25-26mm range. A big boy mount to use in the shallows. LPL is a neat effort, but moderately not really the correct move as it's the same distance as a common EF Mount. That shorter PL or whatever isn't exactly "needed yet", but the use case or it will be likely seen between late 2019-the future.


And just some a of the other stuff regarding short flange depth glass. It will indeed lead to faster, smaller, and ideally higher quality optics. But much of the effort is also to increase profits and simplify optical designs. I'm cool with all that. I use a whole lot of different lenses and still mostly shoot with bigger lenses because at the moment they provide what I am looking for. Though for those who have been following me for a while, I love whipping out my highly portable Bellycam setup in the 6-8lb range when I need to hike in and grab a shot in the middle of nowhere. I suspect with Komodo I'll be able to get that down 3-4-ish lbs and likely more once we figure out how to power this thing.
 
There's hope for me yet, Phil. ;-) Allow me to demonstrate!

About a year ago, I predicted that the Leica L mount lenses were so large because they were intended to cover the ProFormat sensor. That sensor, 45x30mm, is found in the S series. Instead of making the S mirrorless, Leica will simply put a larger sensor in the SL. But that's only part of the story.

But there's a problem. The L mount has a 20mm flange focal distance. Surely that's too short for a sensor larger than 36mm across? Well, lo and behold, guess what the figure is for the Hasselblad XCD mount? 18.14mm. That's shorter than the L mount. And the sensor is 44x33mm, which is slightly larger than Leica's ProFormat sensor.

Leica seems to be playing the long game so patiently that they are willing to cop some serious criticism in the meantime. There is no way that the SL lenses make sense otherwise. Those lenses are not small.

The point of all of this is to demonstrate that short focal flange distances make a lot of sense, even for sensors larger than VistaVision. My friends, we are in for some very interesting times.
 
And what about Zeiss to fullfill the short flange market outside Zeiss/Sony lenses. What about a new Z/RF Zeiss family? I love the Milvus “Superspeeds” but they’re missing a fast ultrawide, at least a 21.
 
Luca Perin said:
And what about Zeiss to fullfill the short flange market outside Zeiss/Sony lenses. What about a new Z/RF Zeiss family? I love the Milvus “Superspeeds” but they’re missing a fast ultrawide, at least a 21.
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Don't think they'd go the route of a 21mm f/1.4 for the Milvus line, especially with the 21mm f/2.8 existing and the 25mm f/1.4 being so close. But who knows, they could surprise me. Anytime I visit Zeiss I mostly try to push them to flesh out the Otus lineup. Bigger and heavier than the Milvus though for sure.

The thing I am really, super damn curious about is some of the mirrorless targeted glass they have and if it's coming to RF. Loxia for sure, but Batis would be fascinating on RF, but they are indeed autofocus lenses and traditionally that's a no-go zone for Zeiss and Canon.
 
With all this talk of shallow depth lens mounts I'm surprised to see little talk about the FZ mount in this discussion, introduced in 2010. I think they had the right idea back then. Clearly Sony is phasing it out since Venice went with a locking E mount, but it is interesting that Sony had the "adaptability" idea way back when.
 
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Well, I take what I said about Blackmagic back.

Looking forward to RED, Canon, & Sony’s response...
 
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Adam Johnson said:
Well, I take what I said about Blackmagic back.

Looking forward to RED, Canon, & Sony’s response...
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As odd of a shape that the camera is, they were really smart to keep the same shape and form factor. Alot of accessories are just becoming normal for it right now.
 
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