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KOMODO killing secondary market for DSMC cameras?

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Bill Stengel

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How badly does everyone think KOMODO is going to gut the already thin secondary market for EPIC Dragons and such?
Should I sell my EPIC Dragon before KOMODO drops officially to the masses?
 
Bill Stengel said:
How badly does everyone think KOMODO is going to gut the already thin secondary market for EPIC Dragons and such?
Should I sell my EPIC Dragon before KOMODO drops officially to the masses?
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Nope. Remember the Epic Dragon is a cinema standard right now and many workflows have been Built with its form factor and attributes in mind. Also the Komodo doesn’t do fast frame rates at 6K. Comes with a RF Mount, doesn’t have the interchangeable mounts of dsmc1 or 2, etc etc. the Epic Dragon’s only downside is its current EOL status and repair ability. Everything else its still one of the top cameras on the market for any high end production.
 
Sergio Perez said:
Nope. Remember the Epic Dragon is a cinema standard right now and many workflows have been Built with its form factor and attributes in mind. Also the Komodo doesn’t do fast frame rates at 6K. Comes with a RF Mount, doesn’t have the interchangeable mounts of dsmc1 or 2, etc etc. the Epic Dragon’s only downside is its current EOL status and repair ability. Everything else its still one of the top cameras on the market for any high end production.
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As I see it RF mount is pretty much a tool less interchangable mount as you can put almost any mount infront of it.

Dragon came out 2013, still a good camera but, time moves on, tech loose value over time.
 
For an outside observer, it may appear confusing. But DSMC & DSMC2 are completely different beasts and they are in no way threatened by the new baby that will be joining the RED family.
As mentioned already, High Frame Rates, expandability, rigging options and seamless integration with industry standard lens systems are a few of the advantages of DSMCs.

However, nothing stops lower spec and lower budget productions from choosing Komodo instead of a DSMC.
The baby of the family is here for a completely different purpose, one that the DSMCs cannot (or should not) do. Tough as nails and compact R3D.

I can see how in some circumstances DSMC owners may have bought one while there was nothing like the Komodo around that would serve their purpose better. But that's the exception rather than the rule.
 
May depend on how the komodo turns out for image quality. But yes it's hard to imagine it won't have an effect or that it would help. It's looking like there may not be much benefit for dsmc1 over komodo and komodo may have a lot more features that appeal to users considering buying lower cost reds.
 
It was exactly this reasoning that had me offload a Scarlet-W recently at a decent value. It was our 3rd camera so doesn't need to have all the bells and whistles (ie. higher frame rates) and was the gateway drug for many incoming Red users. I see Komodo taking that slot up so wanted to get best value on it before the new baby showed up. I picked up a great shape Scarlet-MX where the value was already bottomed out for the most part as our 3rd camera to tide us over till Komodo comes out (We'll pick up 2 of them most likely).
 
It will probably depend on the type of work people will be doing.

Before Komodo I was looking into purchasing a used DSMC/DSMC2 camera, but for the work I do, I'll probably be able to get about 90-95% there with the Komodo. For others in a similar boat, there may be a bit of a hit to the secondary market.

Of course, it will really come down to how the camera performs in the real world.
 
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Benjamin Jarvis said:
It will probably depend on the type of work people will be doing.

Before Komodo I was looking into purchasing a used DSMC/DSMC2 camera, but for the work I do, I'll probably be able to get about 90-95% there with the Komodo. For others in a similar boar, there may be a bit of a hit to the secondary market.

Of course, it will really come down to how the camera performs in the real world.
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As a soon to be RED owner (but long time RED user/renter), I think Benjamin nails it. I was looking at getting used DSMC/DSMC2, but then Komodo came into the picture. However, something to consider is that if used DSMC/DSMC2 prices fall a bit because of Komodo, there will still be people (like myself) looking to get a good deal to purchase DSMC/DSMC2. So sure, they may drop in price, but they will still sell.
 
Problem is that purchasers in the used market are probably at least 60-75 percent users that aren't in the high end cinema market and Komodo's price at 6Kish with new warranty, global shutter, 4K output, gimbal friendly size, as well as the fact that Komodo will be a decent rental item (even for owner/ops) to current RED productions for a while due to size, global shutter, and 4K output - makes it likely to be so attractive to that market, that it seems unlikely they are going to want to spend much more than Komodo dollars for EOL or near-EOL RED cameras. 8K and Monstro will hold up the best (for now - EOS R5 ouch!) but 6K, 5K, 4K Reds are likely to take a big hit. Kind of a bitter pill to swallow but you have to be realistic. (not to mention what pandemic has done to finances)

DSMC3 will likely have all of these features in a more high end production feature/format style, however at the moment Komodo is truly a game changer for the RED universe - DSMC/DSMC2 are still great and will continue to be used for a long while but they have been left behind technologically. Depressing projection but kind of the way the camera market has been for many years - Moore's law applies to some extent in our industry too. Frame rates offset to some extent but likely the potential used buyer will either use what Komodo gives, or rent for specific situations.
 
I think it's going to hurt the used value. For a lot of people it's much easier to spend 6,000.00 and use their own monitors and media pick up a few canon batteries , than buy a Epic W brain for 9,000.00 and have to outfit it with red monitor, red media, red battery modules .
 
Every camera release this comes up. And there are still people filming with the RED One.

Hard truths and perhaps too much of a personal take. Cameras are both good and bad investments, it absolutely just depends on your path, perspective, and plan. I lost a boat load of cash going into medium format digital years ago and it truly was the "bad investment" for me camera-wise. However, every other camera I've owned since has made me good money.

Technology is moving very, very rapidly now. Manufacturers are essentially now in a 3-6 month window slap fest right now and about every year to 1.5 years a punch is really thrown. And a knock down occurs about every 5-ish years. But there is no TKO until the camera doesn't power on.

If DSMC2 didn't alert you to killing the secondary market or RED giving that 2+ year warning on EOL on DSMC bodies, I can't see why Komodo would change your perspective. Stagnated market presence plays a big roll in certain regions. When new cams hit big markets and they captivate filmmakers and rental houses, well, that's where it's most "vibrant". I was out of state once and a year after DSMC2 was released and one guy didn't know DSMC2 was released. It just didn't hit their market yet, the news nor the camera. He looked at my DSMC2 Dragon 6K Weapon like it was alien technology.

Personally, I'd focus on what your camera can do. You have a camera that has a higher max frame rate at 6K for instance.

I still view Komodo as a small compact utility camera, many will use it for A-Cam or whatever, but Epic Dragon is still a fully fledged production body.

Back to the hard truth. Cameras. Every single day you own it the camera is depreciating in value. The goal is to own it, turn a profit, get some joy out of it, and get what you can for it once you've filmed enough with it/made enough with it that you won't miss it.

FYI. I have MAJOR LOVE for Dragon, most of the long time members of REDuser know it. I'd roll with it until the wheels fall off.
 
I agree with Phil’s sentiment. I can hardly believe it’ll be four years in October that I bought my Helium. And truth is the only way I get rid of this thing is if an upgrade to DSMC3 is an option and makes financial and logistical sense when the opportunity arrives.

This camera has been such a solid earner I can’t imagine not owning it or a newer equivalent camera moving forward.

Komodo may very well hurt the secondary Red camera market, but honestly, if you are a shooter/DP with clients who love working with you, as long as you keep producing quality results I imagine the best bet is to work these cameras until they no longer fire up. That’s my plan.
 
The wide release of Komodo will certainly impact the resale market for some DSMC models. If you're looking to sell your used camera in the $5-15K range, I expect you will feel some downdraft. As others have noted, for a lot of gigs, a DSMC2 will offer better set operations integration. IMO, that will keep the resale value from getting hammered.
FWIW, many clients don't even know what a Komodo is, they just want you and your "RED" to show up and get them great imagery.

Cheers - #19
 
Pretty sure resale is going to take a beating (especially DSMC1).

You can maybe bank on 8k and HFR, but outside of that, it's a super light weight, easily powered, non-proprietary media RED, with (apparently) all the DR of its bigger brothers... Plus it has autofocus, built-in screen/control, wireless everything, adaptable to any mount (some speedboosted)...OH and Global Shutter! It's a hard sell to go with a bigger, heavier, slower version of that. In other words, why would you go with the more cumbersome platform that costs ~2~5x?

I said it before, but I think Komodo will do to the RED line-up what the Minis do to Arri's line-up -- most people don't go for the bigger ones if they don't have to, despite the frame rate differences... Ironically, while the Minis usually cost a chunk more than the regular versions, Komodo is what? 1/3rd the cost of the next RED up? Hell, RED's average upgrade prices are substantially *more* than an entirely shootable Komodo. Gnarly.

Conversely, if there was a DSMC1/2 trade-in to Komodo, that would be kinda awesome. Direct trade for any flavour of Dragon would have a lot of people sweating; do you give up HFR for the dozen or so additional benefits of Komodo? Probably.
 
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Mike P. said:
Pretty sure resale is going to take a beating (especially DSMC1).

You can maybe bank on 8k and HFR, but outside of that, it's a super light weight, easily powered, non-proprietary media RED, with (apparently) all the DR of its bigger brothers... Plus it has autofocus, built-in screen/control, wireless everything, adaptable to any mount (some speedboosted)...OH and Global Shutter! It's a hard sell to go with a bigger, heavier, slower version of that. In other words, why would you go with the more cumbersome platform that costs ~2~5x?

I said it before, but I think Komodo will do to the RED line-up what the Minis do to Arri's line-up -- most people don't go for the bigger ones if they don't have to, despite the frame rate differences... Ironically, while the Minis usually cost a chunk more than the regular versions, Komodo is what? 1/3rd the cost of the next RED up? Hell, RED's average upgrade prices are substantially *more* than an entirely shootable Komodo. Gnarly.

Conversely, if there was a DSMC1/2 trade-in to Komodo, that would be kinda awesome. Direct trade for any flavour of Dragon would have a lot of people sweating; do you give up HFR for the dozen or so additional benefits of Komodo? Probably.
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This is definitely not a one or the other situation for most current DSMC2 owners. This is additional camera.
 
Oh I hear ya. I was referring to the OP about the secondary market, but to be fair there's probably less of an incentive for current owners to buy used with Komodo out and about... Like as a DSMC2 owner, are you gonna spring for a second used DSMC2 body if you need a B-cam/back-up/second body, or get a shiny new Komodo for the same price to supplement your shooting needs? (The "one or other" in this case is "used DSCM1 or 2" vs "new Komodo"... And in that case I think the outlier will be opting for a used DSMC1/2.)

Bare in mind, this is all grain-of-salt talk (haven't seen footage; maybe the other shoe will drop and the camera will have a major hinderance that makes it moot), but I have a feeling Komodo is gonna hammer used prices for anything Dragon sensor or older, and actually put the squeeze on Gemini resale value. For all we know, Komodo can do 5k/96fps, which would basically put Gemini in a wonky spot of costing a lot more but providing little. Even low-light is potentially better on Komodo what with Focal Reducer support.
 
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I do think it'll depress the secondary market. I myself had been kicking the tires and thinking about used DSMC1 Dragon (still like the look) or DSMC2 Scarlet W/Dragon X last fall, but decided to hold off when I learned about Komodo.

I'm eagerly waiting to see how the Komodo measures up (#1 image quality, #2 A-cam usability). But if it's on par, I'd have to think hard about whether the frame rates of a DSMC justify the significant extra expenditure in accessories. I don't really do sports stuff-- so maybe a DSMC is an occasional rental item for music videos/fashion? DSMC will likely remain superior for working with a bigger crew but, rather than buy that class of camera, I imagine I'll better off doing what I do now: renting the right camera for the circumstances. Komodo will be the ticket for smaller jobs that can't afford a $1k+ (all in) rental package. (That's what the used DSMC was gonna be for-- the "ok, let's make this work" deal.)
 
Thanks for all the responses – plenty of valid arguments for every position.

I have a Gemini that has taken over as A-Cam in the past year and have been using the Epic-D as a B-Cam mostly in interviews but also handheld and occasionally on gimbal. Ultimately, I'm thinking of cutting the Dragon package loose in hopes of at least covering the cost of a Komodo brain so there are no delusions of grandeur on what the market is at the moment – it's more trying to discern how Komodo is going to affect the DSMC market.
 
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