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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Kinefinity MAVO Edge

You would probably have better noise floor but your highlights will tend to be clipped rapidely. As people judge the camera quality by it's highliths retention/roll-off you'r playing the ball of the blue label.
 
Patrick,

I think that's where how you expose the 1600 Iso image derived from a higher Native ISO with negative gain comes into play. You can use ND filters which would keep the highlights from clipping at the cost of reducing the dynamic range or stopping down the lens being used at a cost of deepening the depth of field.
 
Here are 4 better more clearly explained tutorials about how to get better exposure/images from the Mavo LF which will also be about the same for the Mavo Edge


Exposure Tutorial with Kinefinity MAVO LF - Part 1 - ISO vs. EI modes


By Kinefinity Europe





Exposure Tutorial with Kinefinity MAVO LF - Part 2 - ISO Highlight Stops


By Kinefinity Europe





Exposure Tutorial with Kinefinity MAVO LF - Part 3 - ETTL monitoring


By Kinefinity Europe





Exposure Tutorial with Kinefinity MAVO LF - Part 4 - DUAL ISO Sweet Spot


By Kinefinity Europe


 
Chris McKechnie said:
ProRes RAW won't have the latitude that RED RAW, ArriRaw or even CDNG have in terms of highlight recovery. It's a "fake" version of RAW, not even allowing you to change basic metadata settings like ISO and WB. So while you have a little bit more flexibility, most people will find it isn't worth the effort of adding a recorder, media, bulk, etc., as the cons far outweigh the pros. There are several you tubers who did comparison with even Sony SLOG 2 and PRR...and you'd be surprised, PRR didn't look all that great.
Click to expand...

This is incorrect. While true that support and workflow are underdeveloped for ProRes Raw, you have full control over Exposure and White Balance. There is no interfase that lets you change 'ISO' like with redraw, but changing the exposure slider in FCPX as long as you don't have a log conversion on achieves the same thing. I think ProRes Raw is terribly misunderstood and has terrible examples on the internet. I had my eyes opened at the FCPX Creative summit, when I went in pushing for a Red style interface for FCPX for ProRes Raw and was taught how to work with it and understood that we have full control over a raw signal, its just called different things.

The 'fake' raw floating around is Braw, which does a partial Debayer in-camera, but is still quite good from what I understand.
 
rand thompson said:
Patrick,

In my own personally experience I only use 800 ISO for grading red footage, and if I actually owned a Red camera, I would base getting a good exposure from that. Now in a camera like the Mavo LF and potentially the Mavo Edge, a 1600 ISO that comes from negative gain from a higher Native ISO would probably look better than a 1600 ISO from positive gain from a lower Native ISO . In that case, I would want to use a 1600 ISO and not the 800 ISO which would be the native and last ISO setting of the camera's sensor before digital gain was being added.
Click to expand...

If the ISO change is an EI shift, not gain related, then the DR and noise floor don't change, only your middle gray exposure point changes. It looks to me like most of the dual range gain structure cameras sacrifice some DR in the higher gain range for less noise in the image at higher ISO's. ARRI uses dual gain to increase to first stage captured bit depth (22 bit AD) for better deep shadow detail retention and noise performance, effectively increasing usable dynamic range. I don't think anyone else does this.
 
David,

I was trying to wrap my head around the benefits of using the EI mode over the ISO mode. I believe you just cleared that up for me, thanks. Yeah, to my knowledge I've never heard of anyone else using that Arri method.
 
rand thompson said:
David,

I was trying to wrap my head around the benefits of using the EI mode over the ISO mode. I believe you just cleared that up for me, thanks. Yeah, to my knowledge I've never heard of anyone else using that Arri method.
Click to expand...

For raw cameras as far as I know ISO change is an EI shift, there is no gain change from the optimum gain structure for max DR, Dual gain ISO range cameras excepted. Video cameras use gain, but I have often used EI corrections instead of gain with video cameras to retain highlights with optimum DR.
Gain for raw cameras is added in post.
 
Stuart Hooper said:
This is incorrect. While true that support and workflow are underdeveloped for ProRes Raw, you have full control over Exposure and White Balance. There is no interfase that lets you change 'ISO' like with redraw, but changing the exposure slider in FCPX as long as you don't have a log conversion on achieves the same thing. I think ProRes Raw is terribly misunderstood and has terrible examples on the internet. I had my eyes opened at the FCPX Creative summit, when I went in pushing for a Red style interface for FCPX for ProRes Raw and was taught how to work with it and understood that we have full control over a raw signal, its just called different things.

The 'fake' raw floating around is Braw, which does a partial Debayer in-camera, but is still quite good from what I understand.
Click to expand...

Arri raw let you change iso, whitebalance etc, exlain the difference between that and redraw exept red raw is compressed?
 
Based on my own experiments with a few posted Braw sample files, I would say its main advantage is decoding efficiency on lower powered computers. It runs 4k real time on my 4 year old I7 6700 series MSI laptop, better than CDNG 2k, either compressed or uncompressed. This fits well with the consumer market for their relatively low cost cameras. It does offer a bit more grading flexibility compared to log video formats, but not as much as deep raw formats like CNDG and Redcode.
 
David Rasberry said:
Based on my own experiments with a few posted Braw sample files, I would say its main advantage is decoding efficiency on lower powered computers. It runs 4k real time on my 4 year old I7 6700 series MSI laptop, better than CDNG 2k, either compressed or uncompressed. This fits well with the consumer market for their relatively low cost cameras. It does offer a bit more grading flexibility compared to log video formats, but not as much as deep raw formats like CNDG and Redcode.
Click to expand...

Valid for Scratch
https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Ratgeber/RAW-Format-Vergleich---Ein-tabellarischer-Funktions-Ueberblick--Assimilate-Scratch--RAW-Formate-und-deren-Funkt.html
 
Misha Engel said:
Valid for Scratch
https://www.slashcam.de/artikel/Ratgeber/RAW-Format-Vergleich---Ein-tabellarischer-Funktions-Ueberblick--Assimilate-Scratch--RAW-Formate-und-deren-Funkt.html
Click to expand...

Not sure how to evaluate the comparison table in that article since I can’t read the language. What is the color space column indicating?

The native color space for CDNG from the format specs is CIE XYZ, essentially unrestricted by anything other than sensor and camera color science. It has to be converted to a working display color space, preferably with a mathematically correct color managed workflow in Resolve or similarly capable apps.
 
Björn Benckert said:
Arri raw let you change iso, whitebalance etc, exlain the difference between that and redraw exept red raw is compressed?
Click to expand...

Hey no argument here...I had nothing to say about Arri Raw vs Red Raw. I was simply correcting a poster that stated ProRes Raw isn't actual raw because it doesn't have an ISO or white-balance slider. In fact ProRes Raw does have full exposure and white balance control...it just comes in a different interfase. The only new Raw format I know of that isn't 'real raw' is Braw because of the partial de-bayer. I have no opinion on better or worse or Arri Raw or any of that. Simply pointing out that ProRes Raw is a 'real' raw format.
 
Here's a in depth look at ProRes Raw


ProRes RAW - Expectations and Reality | PART 2: DEEP ANALYSIS



By The DP Journey




TIME STAMPS
01:32 Types of RAW
02:41 What is ProRes RAW
03:48 The meaning of RAW
04:58 PROs: Performance
07:14 PROs: 12bit
07:36 10bit Vs 12bit
09:56 PROs: Compatibility
11:23 PROs: Selectable Log Curve
12:12 PROs: Metadata
13:04 PROs: File Size
14:28 CONs: RAW Controls-WB & ISO
17:47 CONs: Corrections
19:24 ProRes RAW analysis
21:29 Who is ProRes RAW for?
 
Atomos Academy tutorial: Alister Chapman shooting ProRes RAW with Sony



By
ATOMOS


The first 12:47 minutes are a great tutorial about ProRes Raw, the rest is about how to set up Sony cameras to use it.

 
Rand:

Have you graded projects shot with the Mavo LF (I know you've graded footage, but projects)? Long thread, but if so, what do you think of the camera?

There are so many great camera choices right now. Great time to be alive :-)

Thanks
 
Carlos,


Unfortunately I have never graded a "long-form" project of exclusively Mavo LF file content. I like the skin tones a lot, but I've seen many videos, due to the kinefinity cameras low cost, of the camera being used with low quality vintage lenses that don't do the camera justice. Still waiting to see how the internal Prores Raw files from the upcoming Mavo Edge behave in post. I've been playing around with externally recorded Prores Raw files captured from other cameras. But, I just want to see how the internal Prores Raw files can actually be pushed and corrected in an everyday color correcting workflow.
 
David Rasberry said:
ARRI uses dual gain to increase to first stage captured bit depth (22 bit AD) for better deep shadow detail retention and noise performance, effectively increasing usable dynamic range. I don't think anyone else does this.
Click to expand...

Blackmagic BMCC 2.6K (OG)
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera.
Blackmagic micro cinema camera.
Ursa Mini 4.6K
Ursa Mini Pro
Ursa Mini Pro G2

Same idea. Dual gain sensors that have a combined high bit depth (22+) to create a single 16 bit lin image. Then converted to 12bit LOG for encoding.

JB
 
John Brawley said:
Blackmagic BMCC 2.6K (OG)
Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera.
Blackmagic micro cinema camera.
Ursa Mini 4.6K
Ursa Mini Pro
Ursa Mini Pro G2

Same idea. Dual gain sensors that have a combined high bit depth (22+) to create a single 16 bit lin image. Then converted to 12bit LOG for encoding.

JB
Click to expand...

BMD Ursa's have the fairchild mst4625a which are 2x11 bits https://www.fairchildimaging.com/products/scmos-sensors/mst4625a
The Alev III sensor is 2x14 bits https://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/newsItem.do?article=3723

ONsemi bought fairchild imaging a while ago.
 
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