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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Jumping off the Red Wagon

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To the best of my knowledge a new Arri sensor will not be out anytime soon. Have asked a few Arri people about this and it seems unlikely. Apart from resolution the sensor they have now is every bit as good as the competition... perhaps still better. We should stop calling it "4 year old tech" - if it was easy to make a sensor that good, everyone else would not be copying its characteristics.

As a fan/user of both companies products it can be a bit daunting sometimes to come on here and read posts from a few users that lack any perspective either way.

As a lot of knowledgeable Redusers have said, buy and use the camera that best fits your finances, projects, and business. we don't share in any of these companies profits... so let us stop behaving as if we do. Arri do a lot of things right and so does Red. Red has learnt from Arri and Arri is learning from Red.

As it has been stated repeatedly resolution is not the be all and end all for everybody... but that also applies to dynamic range as well.

In my humble opinion

1. Arri should stop behaving as if resolution does not matter - some people want more.. they should deliver it.

2. Red should stop exaggerating D.R... it does the company more damage than good. Every D.P and operator I have spoken to has something negative to say about Red when it comes to this - they should stop it.

3. The Alexa mini is overpriced. It is a "silly" attempt to steal Red market share. But it also highlights the fact that a lot of feature D.Ps just want to keep using what they know.... if they looked Redside they would realise that they are being conned.

4. Red needs to reexamine its market speak. You can't keep saying things and then change your mind when you find out it is expensive to deliver. A lot of people did make the jump to Red products because they believed the marketing. They have legitimate concerns about both the new pricing and the upgrade programmes. And disciples on here who try to turn Red into some saintly company do them a disservice. Criticism spurs all of us to improve.

5. Red needs to work on reliability...(I have sent our Dragon back to Red 3 times since November) and Arri needs to work on delivering Red type customer service (Red's E.M.T service is amazing).
 
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Mark L. Pederson said:
Amen.

And when ARRI announces the 6K sensor upgrade to the SXT (from what I hear the SXT will be the ONLY ARRI camera that will allow the sensor upgrade - as it was designed - like Weapon to facilitate that) for a shit ton of money - everyone will just thank them. And yes, they will make a NEW ALEXA MINI with the new sensor. So you can forget about a "upgrade path" from ALEXA MINI to the eventual 6K ALEXA MINI.
Click to expand...

Totally correct, but ARRI have a different route. Feeling from ARRI is that they don't use the word "sensor" som much, more they make a robust camera that have the "ability" to do Xk resolution while priority is on function getting a shot done. While RED sell a sensor i Xk in a camera body that is smaller, lighter and have better survival toward the future. Some prefer one of the other, but reliability - durability and not failing just in the moment director say action is better over resolution most everybody think in that situation.

Would be cool if there was a super-rugged version of Epic, like if Caterpillar would design something that can be dragged through dirt sit on a tripod in the rain and be just fine.

For me, I prefer RED. Just better price-performance but I have heard endless old DP's selecting Alexa over Epic with just this argument.
 
NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
To the best of my knowledge a new Arri sensor will not be out anytime soon. Have asked a few Arri people about this and it seems unlikely. Apart from resolution the sensor they have now is every bit as good as the competition... perhaps still better. We should stop calling it "4 year old tech" - if it was easy to make a sensor that good, everyone else would not be copying its characteristics.

As a fan/user of both companies products it can be a bit daunting sometimes to come on here and read posts from a few users that lack any perspective either way.

As a lot of knowledgeable Redusers have said, buy and use the camera that best fits your finances, projects, and business. we don't share in any of these companies profits... so let us stop behaving as if we do. Arri do a lot of things right and so does Red. Red has learnt from Arri and Arri is learning from Red.

As it has been stated repeatedly resolution is not the be all and end all for everybody... but that also applies to dynamic range as well.

In my humble opinion

1. Arri should stop behaving as if resolution does not matter - some people want more.. they should deliver it.

2. Red should stop exaggerating D.R... it does the company more damage than good. Every D.P and operator I have spoken to has something negative to say about Red when it comes to this - they should stop it.

3. The Alexa mini is overpriced. It is a "silly" attempt to steal Red market share. But it also highlights the fact that a lot of feature D.Ps just want to keep using what they know.... if they looked Redside they would realise that they are being conned.

4. Red needs to reexamine its market speak. You can't keep saying things and then change your mind when you find out it is expensive to deliver. A lot of people did make the jump to Red products because they believed the marketing. They have legitimate concerns about both the new pricing and the upgrade programmes. And disciples on here who try to turn Red into some saintly company do them a disservice. Criticism spurs all of us to improve.

5. Red needs to work on reliability...(I have sent our Dragon back to Red 3 times since November) and Arri needs to work on delivering Red type customer service (Red's E.M.T service is amazing).
Click to expand...

Very well put. Except that as an Arri owner I can assure you there upgrade path from XR to XT to SXT is just Arri propaganda. Its simply too expensive to undertake and you end up owning all three cameras. In the rental market its all the same camera. I don't think Red has ever misrepresented their DR, you can do your own tests. The problem is more with the numerous test charts available than with the camera itself. The Epic X camera can be tweaked to produce up to 15 noisy stops. If you don't mind post noise reduction you will get some super great images which you can match with the Dragon or Alexa. For some reason debayering in Speedgrade and Scratch yield much better results than redCine X and Resolve. This just my humble observation. I'm no colorist, but i see the results on my desktop.

At a certain age and with enough most of us know all the cameras are excellent beyond pixel peeping, but we have to make business decisions based on fair market value for our investments.
 
Excellent points Nosa. There are Hits and Misses with both companies. Both try to market/sell/sound better by their differences.

I personally think both have thrilled and disappointed their customers at certain points with certain products and/or pricing. Nobody's perfect. Neither company is perfect either.

I wasn't happy with the Weapon upgrade fiasco (as I know many got put off by that trade-in scenario) but knowing that this isn't a linear path for Epic Dragons (more of a new high end category) is reassuring. Hoping the next upgrade will be either less expensive or better trade-up value (at my level).
 
NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
To the best of my knowledge a new Arri sensor will not be out anytime soon. Have asked a few Arri people about this and it seems unlikely. Apart from resolution the sensor they have now is every bit as good as the competition... perhaps still better. We should stop calling it "4 year old tech" - if it was easy to make a sensor that good, everyone else would not be copying its characteristics.

As a fan/user of both companies products it can be a bit daunting sometimes to come on here and read posts from a few users that lack any perspective either way.

As a lot of knowledgeable Redusers have said, buy and use the camera that best fits your finances, projects, and business. we don't share in any of these companies profits... so let us stop behaving as if we do. Arri do a lot of things right and so does Red. Red has learnt from Arri and Arri is learning from Red.

As it has been stated repeatedly resolution is not the be all and end all for everybody... but that also applies to dynamic range as well.

In my humble opinion

1. Arri should stop behaving as if resolution does not matter - some people want more.. they should deliver it.

2. Red should stop exaggerating D.R... it does the company more damage than good. Every D.P and operator I have spoken to has something negative to say about Red when it comes to this - they should stop it.

3. The Alexa mini is overpriced. It is a "silly" attempt to steal Red market share. But it also highlights the fact that a lot of feature D.Ps just want to keep using what they know.... if they looked Redside they would realise that they are being conned.

4. Red needs to reexamine its market speak. You can't keep saying things and then change your mind when you find out it is expensive to deliver. A lot of people did make the jump to Red products because they believed the marketing. They have legitimate concerns about both the new pricing and the upgrade programmes. And disciples on here who try to turn Red into some saintly company do them a disservice. Criticism spurs all of us to improve.

5. Red needs to work on reliability...(I have sent our Dragon back to Red 3 times since November) and Arri needs to work on delivering Red type customer service (Red's E.M.T service is amazing).
Click to expand...


you good points.
But talk is always constructive, everyone has their own thoughts.
 
shashbugu said:
Very well put. Except that as an Arri owner I can assure you there upgrade path from XR to XT to SXT is just Arri propaganda. Its simply too expensive to undertake and you end up owning all three cameras. In the rental market its all the same camera. I don't think Red has ever misrepresented their DR, you can do your own tests. The problem is more with the numerous test charts available than with the camera itself. The Epic X camera can be tweaked to produce up to 15 noisy stops. If you don't mind post noise reduction you will get some super great images which you can match with the Dragon or Alexa. For some reason debayering in Speedgrade and Scratch yield much better results than redCine X and Resolve. This just my humble observation. I'm no colorist, but i see the results on my desktop.

At a certain age and with enough most of us know all the cameras are excellent beyond pixel peeping, but we have to make business decisions based on fair market value for our investments.
Click to expand...


I see your point with regards to the Alexa. We may be acquiring one and we pretty much intend to leave it as is. However they have been "kind" enough to allow any person who purchased after January a "free" upgrade to the SXT. This I attribute to Red's influence and example.

About dynamic range, I respectfully disagree. Using the phrase "usable dynamic range" is at best exaggerating and at worst dishonest. No manufacturer should be allowed to get away with that. So a Canon can now say they have 13 stops of usable D.R in a 5D Mark 3.

I know Geoff Boyle may irk some people on here... and I do think some of his criticism of Red is unjustified. But he does have a point when he questions Red's 15 or 16 stops of usable D.R.

There are ways of measuring D.R in a scientific way. Red should find the most rigid and widely accepted test and subject themselves to that measuring system, then put that in their marketing. It may not make immediate headlines but it will set a standard of trust that will serve them well.
 
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NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
To the best of my knowledge a new Arri sensor will not be out anytime soon. Have asked a few Arri people about this and it seems unlikely. Apart from resolution the sensor they have now is every bit as good as the competition... perhaps still better. We should stop calling it "4 year old tech" - if it was easy to make a sensor that good, everyone else would not be copying its characteristics.

As a fan/user of both companies products it can be a bit daunting sometimes to come on here and read posts from a few users that lack any perspective either way.

As a lot of knowledgeable Redusers have said, buy and use the camera that best fits your finances, projects, and business. we don't share in any of these companies profits... so let us stop behaving as if we do. Arri do a lot of things right and so does Red. Red has learnt from Arri and Arri is learning from Red.

As it has been stated repeatedly resolution is not the be all and end all for everybody... but that also applies to dynamic range as well.

In my humble opinion

1. Arri should stop behaving as if resolution does not matter - some people want more.. they should deliver it.

2. Red should stop exaggerating D.R... it does the company more damage than good. Every D.P and operator I have spoken to has something negative to say about Red when it comes to this - they should stop it.

3. The Alexa mini is overpriced. It is a "silly" attempt to steal Red market share. But it also highlights the fact that a lot of feature D.Ps just want to keep using what they know.... if they looked Redside they would realise that they are being conned.

4. Red needs to reexamine its market speak. You can't keep saying things and then change your mind when you find out it is expensive to deliver. A lot of people did make the jump to Red products because they believed the marketing. They have legitimate concerns about both the new pricing and the upgrade programmes. And disciples on here who try to turn Red into some saintly company do them a disservice. Criticism spurs all of us to improve.

5. Red needs to work on reliability...(I have sent our Dragon back to Red 3 times since November) and Arri needs to work on delivering Red type customer service (Red's E.M.T service is amazing).
Click to expand...

This post is spot on.

Well done.

I do agree there is a way to handle criticism, and a way to handle enthusiasm. Both are needed for anyone to grow. Lately it seems like so many just drink the koolaid without really thinking about what is happening. It's obvious there are people that will blindly buy RED products based on "new toy syndrome" that will defend it like it's their newborn even without it in hand. There are also people that will create the same thread over 15 times to try and downplay something new and pretty amazing.

Now personally, I can't say i'd jump from RED to Arri, because I never would. At the same time I can understand the frustration for the Weapon, the pricing, EOL for many modules that RED never really perfected and instead just kind of left in the dust to just start over, and yet relatively the same camera with prores. But like Phil said I think it was targeted at the Rental market. Thank goodness the Epic MX and Dragon are still great cameras. I'm guessing we'll see a better upgrade plan coming in the future :)
 
NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
3. The Alexa mini is overpriced. It is a "silly" attempt to steal Red market share. But it also highlights the fact that a lot of feature D.Ps just want to keep using what they know.... if they looked Redside they would realise that they are being conned.
Click to expand...

I fail to see how a package that will end up costing the same as a Weapon is "silly" or overpriced when it features built in NDs and the WCU-4, let alone the Arri sensor itself which most of the highest paid DPs in the world have supported.
 
Frank Hague said:
I fail to see how a package that will end up costing the same as a Weapon is "silly" or overpriced when it features built in NDs and the WCU-4, let alone the Arri sensor itself which most of the highest paid DPs in the world have supported.
Click to expand...

More to the point: Pricing is determined by the Market. There is a huge demand for a Gimbal / Drone ready Arri so they can charge a premium price since every Rental House will need to have 5 in stock today. Nothing "silly" about that. The Arri Mini would exist without RED Epic - it's the required form factor to fit into small spaces which has nothing to do with a specific brand. GoPro4, 5D, A7 and the GH4 probably has more to do with the race to small in the Cine world than Epic. DP's are always looking for that unseen angle to help develop their style. There is nothing small (relative to the current 4K market) about an Epic rig in 2015. It's a highly capable, complex, feature movie camera system.
 
Maybe to call it "silly" was a bit harsh. But if you are going to spend 40ish thousand dollars on a camera that size... it makes sense to buy a Red Weapon Dragon which is more feature rich and possibly will have prores quite soon.

However, I do agree with Frank's point that there is no excuse for Red not having built in N.Ds at this stage (correct me if I am wrong but I thought the motion mount had N.Ds although at an extra cost).
 
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NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
Maybe to call it "silly" was a bit harsh. But if you are going to spend 40ish thousand dollars on a camera that size... it makes sense to buy a Red Weapon Dragon which is more feature rich and possibly will have prores quite soon.

However, I do agree with Frank's point that there is no excuse for Red not having built in N.Ds at this stage (correct me if I am wrong but I thought the motion mount had N.Ds although at an extra cost).
Click to expand...

Rental houses buy what the Market rents
 
NOSA OBAYIUWANA said:
Maybe to call it "silly" was a bit harsh. But if you are going to spend 40ish thousand dollars on a camera that size... it makes sense to buy a Red Weapon Dragon which is more feature rich and possibly will have prores quite soon.

However, I do agree with Frank's point that there is no excuse for Red not having built in N.Ds at this stage (correct me if I am wrong but I thought the motion mount had N.Ds although at an extra cost).
Click to expand...

yes, let's tell that to the DPs of over 95% of feature films next year: "the Arri sensor and the Dragon sensor are the same cost, it makes more sense to go with the Dragon because it is more feature rich." See what they tell you.

And the motion mount loses a stop and a half so it's basically worthless in my eyes.
 
Zeb B said:
Rental houses buy what the Market rents
Click to expand...

And the market rents the Arri sensor because most large budgeted professional DPs prefer it. That is a fact. Not saying I agree with it, but it is indeed a quantifiable fact.

So calling the Mini "silly" for being the same price of the Dragon is very unwarranted when considering the Dragon has been much cheaper than the Alexa for two years now and DPs still prefer the Alexa sensor. So now you have the same sensor in a more robust and feature heavy Mini for a cheaper price.

There's a reason it is and will continue to be in high demand,a nd it's not about the features. If cameras were chosen by who was the paper champion, the F65 would have won out a while ago.
 
Frank Hague said:
yes, let's tell that to the DPs of over 95% of feature films next year: "the Arri sensor and the Dragon sensor are the same cost, it makes more sense to go with the Dragon because it is more feature rich." See what they tell you.

And the motion mount loses a stop and a half so it's basically worthless in my eyes.
Click to expand...
Frank go buy Alexa Mini and we ll have chat about it next year when Arri offers you 6K upgrade for a € 20K..
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
Frank go buy Alexa Mini and we ll have chat about it next year when Arri offers you 6K upgrade for a € 20K..
Click to expand...

Owner Ops and Rental Houses have completely different buying motivations. Really RED and Arri are not direct competitors at this moment IMHO. Not sure they ever were since they have always had different business models, target customers and sales / distribution channels. Like comparing Tesla to Ford. With RED's recent move toward capital intensive gear (that suits the Rental House model) that could change over time. Not sure Arri is going to throw out the welcome mat for them and invite them inside for tea. Going to be an interesting 2016 to see who wins at this fight that has been brewing for 7 or so years.
 
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