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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It begins, rumors of 4k camera challengers.

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Gunleik Groven said:
RED, on their side will have to overcome the "real framerates costs real money" statement from Jim, and probably should slash the price of the scarlet pacjage with 40-50% at NAB to get into C300/FS700 land
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With all Jim has done to protect the values of the the Red One and Epics I have to expect that no such price cut will happen. That may be a necessary bias on my part because I've invested in Scarlet. I have to say if Red were to devalue my kit in that way without throwing me a bone to offset my loss, I would have to reconsider any future Red purchase. No, a price cut like that is bad business. It would probably be less costly in the long run to allow current Scarlet owners to have the Dragon upgrade for cheap or even free. (If it includes the frame rates as some have predicted) That also seems doubtful to me. Besides, without the price cut, frame rates and 1080 built in, any action would be a half measure in trying to compete.

Having stated those things I feel the need to reiterate that I believe RAW is a valuable feature and an asset, not a detractor as some seem to be suggesting. The idea that Red has to back away from RAW and compete in native 1080 as a method of survival is laughable to me. I hope that is not what folks are saying. If they really believed that, why would they be here in the first place?

I think Red should engage in 1080 competition with a module, I want one of those, but RAW is a must have... A keeper... I love RAW.
 
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The Scarlet justifies it's price with RAW, HDRx, 4K and various other features. I don't think any price cut is needed to compete against the FS700 or similar... for now at least. I think Scarlet still sits a full year above the new tech coming out.

My guess is that a kitted out 4K FS700 and Scarlet will be much the same price, so then it is up to the individual to pick which features suit them best.

I'm just gonna be greedy and have both... Scarlet for A cam... FS700 for B cam and 1080P slow motion work (hopefully 4K/60p/S35/RAW within a year).
 
Jay Birch said:
The Scarlet justifies it's price with RAW, HDRx, 4K and various other features. I don't think any price cut is needed to compete against the FS700 or similar... for now at least. I think Scarlet still sits a full year above the new tech coming out.

My guess is that a kitted out 4K FS700 and Scarlet will be much the same price, so then it is up to the individual to pick which features suit them best.

I'm just gonna be greedy and have both... Scarlet for A cam... FS700 for B cam and 1080P slow motion work (hopefully 4K/60p/S35/RAW within a year).
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I agree with point one, but if you were going to drop all of that money, why not just sell Scarlet and upgrade to Epic and a Red Rocket?

I will go further and suggest that as the other manufacturers get up to speed trying to catch up with Red, that we will see their new cameras become obsoleted by their own next models faster than we have before. It is already happening at Canon. If you thought it was troublesome having your $2000 camera replaced in eight months or so, consider this; How will you feel when your investment is $10000-$20000 and it has a life of six months? (That question BTW is not directed solely at you, Jay.)
 
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I get your point... kinda... But the cam doesn't get worse with a pricecut, and it has still made you some money, or?

Electronica usually devaluate quickly. The R1 is an exception, an exception powered by REDs will to keep t high priced and doing some pretty unusual business decissions that have earned them an extremely loyal userbase. I am amongst that userbase... Still... For the first time RED is facing real competition. NOT on the technical areas where RED is ruling technically, but to the userbase they are atracting with the Scarlet, and from a broadcast POV (which is one of my hats) the Scarlet is getting pretty pricy for what we need. I can also see that all those who cannot really afford to deal with RAW/feels it is a limiting factor, don't really want RAW. It is a legitimate wish to have a decent RGB/YUV codec to record to. Even though I as a user don't want it, I have no problem seeing where that will fit better.

What RED did when they went from the 3k scarlet to the current one, was smart, looks even smarter today, even though I was in for the 2/3". But it is also where all the competition is. So far RED has stayed out of extremely competitive markets and overdelivered. The Scarlet overdelivers on a lot of Cinema features, and probably - signal wise - is the best option on the table, except it is a bit pricy - and especially the SSDs are too expensive and unneccesarily so for the datarates demanded by the Scarlet vs the Epic.

For RED to get a real foothold in the market they are now approaching and which has become incredibly more competitive since the first scarlet was announced, ready-to-shoot packages probably should not cost more than 9000$ and there should be media (scarlet-spec'ed only) available at about half the current price.

I am a huge fan of the original R1, and it paid for itself over the first month of ownership. All the rest is just bonus. But prices will eventually have to go down or specs up, and for the first time it seems like red is getting a real run for their money. At least from where I see things.

The Epic OTOH still shines up there. No offense meant. Just observations, which may or may not be right...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Electronica usually devaluate quickly. The R1 is an exception, an exception powered by REDs will to keep t high priced and doing some pretty unusual business decissions that have earned them an extremely loyal userbase.
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What RED did when they went from the 3k scarlet to the current one, was smart, looks even smarter today, even though I was in for the 2/3". But it is also where all the competition is. So far RED has stayed out of extremely competitive markets and overdelivered.
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Both points are true and it is important that we remind ourselves of these right now. It is the retained value and user loyalty that sets Red apart above all other things. That is what will allow Red to weather any coming competition. Without it Red is just another electronics company. I do believe that they are different like Apple is different.

Red HAS chosen to stay out of that other, more competitive market... So why are we suggesting that Scarlet has to do anything to compete there?

Gunleik Groven said:
I get your point... kinda... But the cam doesn't get worse with a pricecut, and it has still made you some money, or?
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True is doesn't get any worse, but as to the money... I think the numbers of small indie film makers who bought Scarlet will outnumber the business folks. That is to say that the average Scarlet owner did not buy it with an immediate plan to earn it's price back. Either that or they hoped to earn that income via rentals, and that doesn't seem to be a very viable plan in most markets. The price point and numbers in the field for Scarlet are going to make it's rental market nearly impossible to compete in I think. It will be nice to be wrong on this, but that is my current assessment.

I am seeing it in my own market. One of the only rental houses in my area has told me they already have a large Scarlet sub pool, and if they need more Scarlets they can afford to buy them, as they are relatively inexpensive. With that they negotiated for a 50% commission on a $500. Day rate, and that doesn't interest me. It may have been just a tactic, but it wouldn't be far from the truth. I expect the same will be true in most places.

That would be a fair description of me, as a Scarlet owner. Maybe I am a fortunate minority. Maybe I am a fool, but I made this unusual decision in the light of the fact that Red cams HAVE held their value. If I chose to subsequently incorporate Scarlet into my business, or maybe upgrade to Epic, then I could afford to sell Scarlet to do it. If however, Red pulls the rug from underneath Scarlet owners, then the Obsolesence Obsolete model goes into the toilet with Scarlet's value.
 
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Scott Crawley said:
Red HAS chosen to stay out of that other, more competitive market... So why are we suggesting that Scarlet has to do anything to compete there?
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Volume, and because that's where it fits in.

Actually 99% of the shots we do at the Norw Broadcast Corp we do with the Epics we have, could have been done as well with a Scarlet. That would not be true for an F3, C300 or the upcoming FS700.
So for that market, the Scarlet is obviously underpriced... That is given that HDRx had been available at 4khd 25fps...
BUT that is a small and pretty specialised market.

The Scarlet "brand" has allways ben tuned towards a more high-end consumer/lower end commercial market and it is from that perspective I am making my comments. Because we do NOT need any more Epics or RED1s at the Broadcast Corp. We probably need in the range of 20-50 cameras to replace the DSLRs for smaller units within the main house.
And those COULD have used the Scarlet, but as it seems, I guess they'll get C300s or something like the FS700.
This will happen for three reasons

Price, price, price and conceived price of workflow
The idea that RAW is "hard" - which is not right and is easilly overcome
The fact that the encryption of the R3d format creates a lot of computing ooverhead that needs to be adressed with stuff like the Rocket or larger machines. Total cost of use, in other words.

If these issues are not adressed, a lot of photographers will get to use under-par cameras, and probably they will be very happy with it.

A prores module with an extra EVF/LCD tap, fixing the bomb EVF, SSD pricing, are all things that COULD have set the Scarlet apart.

Unfortunately I don't think framerates will come to Scarlet this way, but that is more of a marketing thing anyway.
High FPS is fun, but not generally used a lot. THAT is overcomeable, and I think HDRx trumps that option by a fair margin in everyday use for most productions...

Rgar said, I'd much rather have bought a Scarlet ready-to-shoot package than a R1 MX these days.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Volume, and because that's where it fits in.
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Back when Scarlet was a 2/3 I would have agreed with you, but now not so much. If Red is compelled to compete in volume in the future, maybe then folks like Wayne (The old Scarlet hopefuls.) will see something of the prototype Scarlet resurrected.

I respect your opinion and your insight, but prey you are mistaken... And I'm not a religious person by any means. ;-)
 
As someone looking in from the outside I would have to agree with Scott. In the last couple of weeks I have been heavily researching the Scarlet and whether it was a good investment for me personally and financially. I can afford the camera even though the paying work is not quite there for me yet. I have looked at all the cameras out there and have kept an eye on the FS700 since I heard about it, in fact I held out in my purchase until I had seen the footage yesterday. I still bought the Scarlet. Frame rates are nice but limited usage, at least for narrative work. I have looked at the rental market to see if there is opportunity to make some of my investment back but have been met with similar feedback that Scott gave. 50% of the rental price to sub rent is not that great. Over saturated market. Yada yada. I see more music video productions down here than narrative work. Will they all be wanting to rent/buy FS700s now? Perhaps. As someone looking to do a few music videos with the Scarlet, perhaps that target market has vanished for me now. So even with all that knowledge, and NAB a week away I still went with my gut and bought a Scarlet this week. Why? Because I believe in RED. I don't think for one minute I'll get shafted next week when announcements are made. There's no way they're going to drop their prices and alienate everyone that just invested in a 3 month old camera. Not going to happen.

And I'll just add I honestly feel that I have not just invested in RED but it a great community. I doubt I would get that from any other camera manufacturer.
 
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Get it... as to ROI

My ROI these days is entirely in the field of having the ability to shoot my own stuff. I conciously do not rent and I am not interested in renting. It is a business in which I am not interested.

I was more into the business aspect of things when I got R1.

Nowadays I only hope to shoot and finnish films, and work for the broadcast corp and filmschools teaching and possibly DP for others, but I have become increadibly unfocused on and uninterested in the pure business side of things the last years, which has made me a lot happier and a lot poorer... :) But I do this because I think it is the best thing for me. And sometimes I get paid, too... :)

So I see your ROI concerns.

BUT then... If you bought it for your own use, and you get to use it, what harm does it make to you if the price get slashed?
Or are you planning to sell it?
Looking at this board, it seems to be hard even to sell unopened EpicX packages these days, when RED is out of backorder, even with the discounts Epic-X'ers can offer.

The F3 and early C300 people and a lot of others have seen the same thing, and I see why Sony did that. They wanted to have customers. Simple as that.
Enjoy your camera and make great images with it.

Prices of equipment does not affect your ability to do that...

But of course, it depends on what market we are looking at and what volumes RED wants to sell...

I am sure the Scarlet will hold up as a camera over time much better than the new guys, like the R1 has.
What other 4,5 year old camera is still good enough for a feature? :)

But today, I'd much rather have bought a Scarlet than an MX RED1...
 
Not to worry because these companies don't really invest their money to give you anything like a real red camera. They make money on hype just checkout the new Sony FS700, I own the FS100 and it's a great camera for videos or interviews but they still hav that camcorder look. the FS 700 can do 960 fps so they say but the camera will burn out or you can only record 6 seconds 16 seconds etc. and the 4K is only offered in a firmware that you have to pay for...man come on! If you can't afford a RED camera you have to stick with the consumer hype ones that change every year. my thoughts are if you want to do real films buy what's professional but if you want to be cheap and want everything that the big boys have but pay less for it Sony and canon have what you need. If i want a Benz I have to get a better job so I can afford it but if I want a knock off I will look for a car that looks like a benz for cheap and call it..... The Baby Benz.
 
For feature work, high end commercials and TV-drama, there is RED (all cameras), Alexa, and F65 that holds up. And I'd have picked the Epic or Scarlet for this kind of work any day from this crop. If you're not looking for a specialized "look".

BUT the parameters in the vs RED is a bit different for each of the "other" cameras...

Thing is that from a user perspective, most people do NOT work within this rather small segment... :)
 
Bruce Allen said:
But you have to face it: 240fps 1080p, made from a properly-downscaled 4K sensor... for likely below $10,000 including lens and storage media is pretty nifty! Obviously the 8 second limit, plus lack of Genlock is less nifty...

And yes - I can't help wondering if this was actually designed partly as an answer to the original 3K 2/3" Scarlet... which also had a buffered high speed mode.

Anyway the big question for me is whether the RAW 4K output will be uncompressed RAW (and therefore limited to 24fps) or if they will put SR-style compression on it a la the F65... because then theoretically it could do higher framerates.

Next question is what the presumably genlock-including Sony F5 will cost?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
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Sleeping for flight tomorrow (not literally now, I'm not that good ;) so skipping a few pages of replies. Around 2007/2008 Sony came out with a sensor that did around 6.xmp at 60fps, used in A Casio camera fx1 or something lie that. 240fps 1080p is not a remarkable achievement, it is just about time, even for cheap cameras. One of the big let downs of the x was the lack of the high speed modes, I wonder when we will see that, because in commercials and music videos it would be useful artisically.
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Get it... as to ROI

My ROI these days is entirely in the field of having the ability to shoot my own stuff. I conciously do not rent and I am not interested in renting. It is a business in which I am not interested.
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Me too. If the worst case scenario of a price cut did come to pass I could happily continue on my way. It just wouldn't happen again. Ever. Owning Scarlet will impact my spending for a while but I can manage. I would have been a complete idiot to do it otherwise.
 
Scarlet is a great camera in a time when great cameras' life spans are short.
This industry is just getting started. They'll be dropping 3K devices into cereal boxes before too long. I fear RED might be pushed more an more into a niche, and niche technologies don't dictate to the industry or the art. Just a gut feeling, a little time will tell, but RED could become more of an island than they had planned. Still got to love them though.
 
Early adopters usually pay a premium price for new tech. If you can leverage the premium into higher income or an early market advantage over your competition, then it is worth it.

For some of us it is better to wait until it all shakes out a bit.
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
If we're discussing $8k 4k s35mm cameras... just imagine how awkward Scarlet 3k 2/3" for $6k would be right about now... :p
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suddenly the 3k for 3$k abandonment seems to make sense. Youre right
 
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