It begins, rumors of 4k camera challengers.

[AndrewThomas]

The fact that adults are STILL complaining that they didn't get what they wanted on November 3rd says a lot about the declining maturity of humanity.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Like Mike said some people only have so much money. I mean look at the Scarlet. The Epic is 10x better but costs 3x as much. If you were buying $ per feature you would buy an Epic. But that doesn't mean the Scarlet isn't a better purchase for people. Similarly people will buy "last year's" camera for a steep discount if it's affordable to them. It'll be interesting to see where things fall. I'm just suspicious that most companies view RAW as an asset. The Alexa is very very successful without RAW. The C300 appears to be successful without RAW. I'm not convinced that my desire for RAW isn't a niche interest.

Gavin,

there are millionaries who can pay US$11,743.80 (€8,954.00, £7,400.00) for a bottle of the best wine in the world

Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, Romanée-Conti 2004 >>>

Scarlet-x body is just US$ 9,700.00 even US$200 less than that Romanée-Conti the best bottle of red wine in the world.

Definitely Scarlet-X is the best camera in the world and really you don't need to become a millionaire to buy it.

Domaine de la Romanée-Conti, Romanée-Conti 2004 US$9,900.00 per bottle

Scarlet-X brain only US$9,700.00.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gavin,

there are millionaries who can pay US$11,743.80 (€8,954.00, £7,400.00) per bottle of the best wine in the world
Definitely Scarlet-X is the best camera in the world and really you don't need to become a millionaire to buy it.

Scarlet-X is the best camera in the world for certain uses and price brackets. But I'm trying to put together a package for a friend right now... and the numbers are tough to make work. It's very likely I'm going to steer him towards a non-red product if he can wait until June and half of these NAB rumors come true. If the F700 for instance has higher frame options, better sensitivity, wider dynamic range and a real-debayer for <$10k with an 18-100mm lens then it's a no-brainer if you can't work with RAW. They're a small studio which handles feature length documentaries. They can't handle 100TB of data or afford Red Rockets.

My projects are more often than not VFX intensive. They also usually have run-times of 30s or less. So Scarlet is perfect for my uses. The $15k 4k Camera market is about to get very crowded. RED is going to need to do something to differentiate Scarlet pretty soon. Currently that's RAW... but that advantage I imagine is going to be short-lived.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Scarlet-X is the best camera in the world for certain uses and price brackets. But I'm trying to put together a package for a friend right now... and the numbers are tough to make work. It's very likely I'm going to steer him towards a non-red product if he can wait until June and half of these NAB rumors come true. If the F700 for instance has higher frame options, better sensitivity, wider dynamic range and a real-debayer for <$10k with an 18-100mm lens then it's a no-brainer if you can't work with RAW. They're a small studio which handles feature length documentaries. They can't handle 100TB of data or afford Red Rockets.

My projects are more often than not VFX intensive. They also usually have run-times of 30s or less. So Scarlet is perfect for my uses. The $15k 4k Camera market is about to get very crowded. RED is going to need to do something to differentiate Scarlet pretty soon. Currently that's RAW... but that advantage I imagine is going to be short-lived.

Hopefully that comes in the form of Frame rates.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Funny I can get Redser to work but not my flight booking service.

Guys this thread is not about fixed scarlet infighting, knock it off. It is about the future and how it affects Red (a nice cheap scarlet 4k 150fps fixed, would be a nice touch in that future though, but is not going happen anytime soon by the looks of it ('btloi', I got a feeling this might be a worthy abbreviation arounds). About how individual cameras affect the Red market in particular). By this time all these pages should have been full of well reasoned logical debate, with nothing left to discuss until somebody actually comes out with something.

Here is my bet, Red will come out on top with Scarlet x, but a few other manufacturers will try to undercut Red with inferior products and get up to 90% of sales (that mostly should have gone to Scarlet range, up to 50% for present x on it's own with whatever adjustments). The scarlet fixed is gone, to do it in future is going to be ten times harder, just because the other competitors have decided to transition into the market reducing sales volumes to pay for everything and keep costs down). Scarlet fixed was a 2007 camera, let it rest in piece. The cheap scarlet wanabees coming out (2.5k, are practically 2004/2005 cameras using consumer sensor format and resolutions new back then, the bottom end can feed well, forget the link, but 8mm version).

The fact that adults are STILL complaining that they didn't get what they wanted on November 3rd says a lot about the declining maturity of humanity.

A mature person does what they say or sincerely apologizes, preferably ahead of time if they can and need to so people can compensate for the change of plan, even contritely the worse it is, and is not a person that knocks people put out by such things.

 

[Bob Gundu]

Well here is footage from the FS700. To me, other than frame rates, the footage looks like FS100. Those highlight roll-offs are still brutal. It's interesting how all the video focuses on is frame rates. This camera fits in between the FS100 and F3. I personally feel the Scarlet/Epic has plenty of advantages over the F3, so you can draw your own conclusions.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/39839187

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yeah, the 4k fs700 camera with no 4k, we can bag that until they can show 4k footage and release the 4k upgrade. Maybe Red should make a redcode recorder for it with nle thrown in for say, $10k, would be interesting to see how many people bought it ("oh, this thing is so small, cheap and so good.." (a stripped down scarlet heart without the sensir ). They could probably sell that for $5k, even $2k, but it would detract from the other business).

Interesting thing is that Sony is supposed to be making the best performing still sensor on the market, but I wonder what's in this?

 

[Bruce Allen]

But you have to face it: 240fps 1080p, made from a properly-downscaled 4K sensor... for likely below $10,000 including lens and storage media is pretty nifty! Obviously the 8 second limit, plus lack of Genlock is less nifty...

And yes - I can't help wondering if this was actually designed partly as an answer to the original 3K 2/3" Scarlet... which also had a buffered high speed mode.

Anyway the big question for me is whether the RAW 4K output will be uncompressed RAW (and therefore limited to 24fps) or if they will put SR-style compression on it a la the F65... because then theoretically it could do higher framerates.

Next question is what the presumably genlock-including Sony F5 will cost?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well here is footage from the FS700. To me, other than frame rates, the footage looks like FS100. Those highlight roll-offs are still brutal. It's interesting how all the video focuses on is frame rates. This camera fits in between the FS100 and F3. I personally feel the Scarlet/Epic has plenty of advantages over the F3, so you can draw your own conclusions.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/39839187

Ewwwwww. Also some wicked rolling shutter.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

I'm kind of undecided on it at this point, but there were some shots I liked. I like the potential of the camera. I can't afford an Epic, and need the frame rates for some work that I do, I'm hoping RED combats this with the Dragon upgrade for the Scarlet. I might end up picking one of these up if I can get enough work and once we find out more about the 4K External recorder on it.

It isn't the prettiest footage ever but I'm not a fan of the coloring they used for nearly any of the shots. I did see some rolling shutter but I see that in my Scarlet as well. The Scarlet is still in a totally different league then the FS700, but it is nice to know that those frame rates are becoming more affordable, while the quality does need to improve, I'm impressed with the progress and someone taking a step out there and putting it in an affordable camera. The part I really like is that even though its at 1080, you don't have to deal with the 2K crop of the MX sensor.

 

[Les Dittert]

That Sony is going to piss off the DSLR shooters mostly.
The 240 fps stuff looked clean. Sure, you are stuck with the 'printed in' color that you got when you shot it, meaning you have to really pay attention because you can't resurrect it in post, like on the Red.
Since most work ends up being 1080, this camera will 'drink Reds milkshake' in that segment, I feel.
The bigger deal is the first sub $10K camera that shoots a clean 10 or 12 bits deep. Doesn't have to be RAW, just more bits with good compression.
I know my two Scarlets are up-gradable, but so was my old computer to some extent. New silicon that SONY can afford to develop may replace 3 boards out of the Scarlet, and not need massive cooling either. It's just how computer hardware evolves, and cameras are mostly computers nowadays.
I'm happy that Jim has future upgrades. I wish for just a simple drop in sensor swap upgrade at some point. Just that alone should be possible without signal path upgrades and keep the cost low.

 

[Mike Garrick]

As a director I don't understand this continual fascination with over cranked frame rates, in my book it is an effect. Hence like all effects it will have it's moment in the sun.

It appears today many judge a camera by its variable frame rate range & not is ability to output a quality image. In fact I class it as the new 'novelty' employed by manufacturers marketing departments to prove how desirable their products are.

So a simple question........How much slo mo is everyone going to be shooting ? 1% , 5% , 10% for a given production. Why do you need it, is it advancing the story line or is it just an excuse to substitute creative production values with an easy in camera effect? Sure there are times when it is required but this will be/should be, few & far between.

Logically, very soon we are going to have great suuupppperrr slo - mo from every camera manufacturer. Hence every future production will have stunning overcranking........& everyone ( the audience ) will be totally jaded with it. In fact, I foresee this decade will be the decade of boring SLO - MO. No one is asking the question why it is needed & how does it create a point of difference for your production/narrative when everyone else is doing the same.

If I ever upgrade to Epic, it will be based on frame size & data rates & not on Epic's ability to deliver overcranking.

So by all means jump on board the "Slo-mo/Overcrank wagon' but don't expect it to get you far in the future .

 

[Erik Bien]

As a director I don't understand this continual fascination with over cranked frame rates.

Guess you've never directed a food spot.

 

[Mike Garrick]

Done many Erik & when I do, I hire in the camera for those shots.

Like I said there are times when it's vaild but every time ? Also do you need to own it for when you need it ?

 

[Brett Clements]

It is about time someone validated the future. Now... as long as they also validate RAW and high frame rates, plus upgradeability at a reasonable price... we have competition. Until then... not so much.

Jim

I bought your camera Jim because it is RED hot and you're involved. And I like the obsolete factor and this forum. Where's Mr Canon; Mr Nikon or Mr Sony? Like. Can you respond to them in a BLOG? Nah.

 

[Jay Birch]

Yeah, the 4k fs700 camera with no 4k, we can bag that until they can show 4k footage and release the 4k upgrade.

Is that any different to advertising a Scarlet that can shoot 120fps? It is coming in an upgrade and we currently don't know when.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The other guys are catching up on the whole oversampling to 1080 concept.

That is only good!

If they can record to a decent codec, that would be even better.
For a ton of uses it does not have to be RAW, 10bit 444 log will do a lot in DNx or ProRes flavors.
As a nextstep, 4k recording will come, but as all the others have been badmouthing REDs compressed attitude, they'll have to work a way around the cameleating to come up with practical/good solutions.

RED, on their side will have to overcome the "real framerates costs real money" statement from Jim, and probably should slash the price of the scarlet pacjage with 40-50% at NAB to get into C300/FS700 land

For the first time since 2007/2008 I really think this NAB will be really interesting in the cameradept.
Don't forget F65 and what Arri may or may not have up their sleave.

In the meantime, Epic is still Epic... Would be nice with that 720p 750 fps option that was mentioned, just for bragging rights...
And a 2nd gen RPPs with more precise focus marks and lighter weight in the wider end at the same or lower pricepoint.

Speculating: ON!!!

 

[Jay Birch]

The fact is that Sony have done something very similar to RED.

They have taken a usually very expensive feature (s35 super slow motion) and brought it to the masses. I don't get the negative response on here.... Sure, it lacks in other areas (for now) but so did R1-M.

Get out of the mindset of one company fits all.... I think the FS700 will sit very well with the Scarlet. Can't wait (unless RED offer an upgrade for the Scarlet to shoot 240fps in s35 for $8k!).

Just sit back and enjoy...

btw - Maintaining the S35 mode is a true godsend.

 

[Brian Merlen]

the only reason i am even considering a sony is because i made the mistake of buying some of their glass with a nex vg10 already...truthfully the scarlet is far better camera and until the recorder price is out who knows whether the sony is cheaper then the scarlet or not? its too early to know anything basically... but considering the scarlet has a sensor upgrade path and your not stuck with a dead end camera body, its a far better buy. im feeling pretty conflicted until the recorder price is out, or dragon specs are released...fortunately i am broke as hell and work as a DIT with a scarlet 50 hours a week so i dont need to rush out and buy anything quite yet...:smiley:

 

[Gunleik Groven]

the only reason i am even considering a sony is because i made the mistake of buying some of their glass with a nex vg10 already...truthfully the scarlet is far better camera and until the recorder price is out who knows whether the sony is cheaper then the scarlet or not? its too early to know anything basically... but considering the scarlet has a sensor upgrade path and your not stuck with a dead end camera body, its a far better buy. im feeling pretty conflicted until the recorder price is out, or dragon specs are released...fortunately i am broke as hell and work as a DIT with a scarlet 50 hours a week so i dont need to rush out and buy anything quite yet...:smiley:

The recorder is probably a variant of the cheapest F65 recording solution. Thus it is in SR land, though a lot cheaper than the tape SR was