Red Rocket 2?

[Robert McGee]

The PCI card and breakout box that is all the rage with red users, I think it's time to make a new one, there are several out there that do this and I dare you guys to do better. This is what you need for Red Rocket 2.

*All the original features of the first Red Rocket.
*Output 4K source downscale to 2K/1080p via HD-SDI and HDMI
*Upscale 480i/p to 720p/1080i/p in selected formats.
*Upscale 1080i/p to 2K/4k in redcode format from any camera
*Capture 8 channel sound via HDMI in r3d format from any camera
*Capture 16 channel sound via HD-SDI in r3d format from any camera

Additional features via breakout box
*All the original features of the first breakout box
*3" LCD screen in place of monitor
*Storage via red flash or red drive
*Data transfer to PC or Mac via USB
*View video files via HDMI, DVI, HD-HDI at 4K/2K/1080i/p

Well, is there anything else that hasn't been covered?

 

[Stephen Lovett]

What are you looking for

What are you looking for

The PCI card and breakout box that is all the rage with red users, I think it's time to make a new one, there are several out there that do this and I dare you guys to do better. This is what you need for RED Rocket™™™™ 2.

*All the original features of the first RED Rocket™™™™.
*Output 4K source downscale to 2K/1080p via HD-SDI and HDMI
*Upscale 480i/p to 720p/1080i/p in selected formats.
*Upscale 1080i/p to 2K/4k in redcode format from any camera
*Capture 8 channel sound via HDMI in r3d format from any camera
*Capture 16 channel sound via HD-SDI in r3d format from any camera

Additional features via breakout box
*All the original features of the first breakout box
*3" LCD screen in place of monitor
*Storage via red flash or red drive
*Data transfer to PC or Mac via USB
*View video files via HDMI, DVI, HD-HDI at 4K/2K/1080i/p

Well, is there anything else that hasn't been covered?

Hi I'm a bit confused by a lot of this,

To cull out a couple... why would I want a usb port available from the rocket breakout box?

As it is throughput is pushing the envelope if you are multitasking (grading, transcoding, editing in FCP of dailies etc. even with a fast (>500MB/sec) raid, so why would I want a connection that tops out at about a tenth of that?

The same rather holds true for direct attachment of the RED raid or ram, they are very likely not going to be fast enough to support the new higher data rates we are going to see with the new cameras.

I'm also confused why I'd want rocket to upscale standard def video to 720p/ 1080i, or a small screen, or non standard audio connections?

I'm completely prepared to admit that I may have missed something here, but for Rocket v next, make it able to work well with multiple cards in one box, be fast enough to do realtime on the higher data rate RedCode and have the rocket supported within third party apps via the SDK. I see the limitations of the current offering being more software based than a hardware limitation.

It would be super cool if it could replace the Kona 3 mostly just because it would save me a slot, but mostly I just want it to do what it's doing but be more stable and more broadly supported, which I think is the path we are on.

My $.02

 

[Kwan Khan]

It would be super cool if it could replace the Kona 3 mostly just because it would save me a slot

Agreed..

 

[Robert McGee]

Yeah, there are lots of these things out there but none of them offer 4K up conversion. It would be a step in the right direction for sure.

Now I suggested an LCD Screen, storage via either red flash or red drive, and data transfer via USB so this thing could be a full blown stand alone device. Standard def would would be input via HDMI or SD-SDI. The thought about the SD to HD is the home video market to where anything that was originally shot in SD can be released in HD format like broadcast on HDTV or released on Blu-Ray without the consumer felling like he or she has been cheated. It hasn't been made clear if Redcode format offers HD because it's always used to shoot either 2K or 4k on all the Red Ones.

 

[Robert McGee]

The idea behind this item is to put 4K scanning in the hands of low-budget indie filmmakers. No matter what camera their using whether their shooting on some HDV camera or some AVCHD camera, they can upscale their 1080p24 video to 4K resolution without having to use the power of their PCs or their Macs. It can be ready to be printed onto film with the Red Rocket 2.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

The idea behind this item is to put 4K scanning in the hands of low-budget indie filmmakers. No matter what camera their using whether their shooting on some HDV camera or some AVCHD camera, they can upscale their 1080p24 video to 4K resolution without having to use the power of their PCs or their Macs. It can be ready to be printed onto film with the RED Rocket™ 2.

So they'd buy a $5000 card to do something they could do with their current computers in a day or two?

Why would you want to print 1080p to film at 4K anyway? That would be a complete waste of money as you're not getting any more quality than you would with a 2K print...

And anyway, the card is called RED Rocket. Since RED cameras don't need upscaling, RED aren't going to bother putting that on the card...

 

[D Fuller]

There's only one thing on my wish-list for this card: the ability to get After Effects to use the RR SDI outs. That would make my system perfect. (for now)

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Can RED Rockets be set up in tandem for close to 200% the processing speed, a'la SLI? That would be sweet.

 

[Robert McGee]

So they'd buy a $5000 card to do something they could do with their current computers in a day or two?

Why would you want to print 1080p to film at 4K anyway? That would be a complete waste of money as you're not getting any more quality than you would with a 2K print...

And anyway, the card is called RED Rocket. Since RED cameras don't need upscaling, RED aren't going to bother putting that on the card...

You might say that but 1080p footage has been upscaled to 4K resolution before in several cases, Avatar was shot using 2 HD cameras side-by-side because it was 3D and that footage was upscaled to 8K to be screened in IMAX 3D. The Panavision Genesis shoots at 1080p and it is also upscaled to 4K to be printed onto film. Films like Superman Returns, Planet Terror, SuperBad, all shot at HD 1080p. Now if Hollywood is going to do it, then the indie guys should be able to do it to.

If your shooting on a Redone, your not going to need such a tool, but if your shooting on say a Canon HV40, you will. Plus once you get a Redone, this same device will have all the original features of the first Red Rocket.

 

[M Most]

Can RED Rocket™™s be set up in tandem for close to 200% the processing speed, a'la SLI? That would be sweet.

If you're using Assimilate Scratch the answer is yes, sort of. You don't get 200% speed, but you do get a significant speed increase for transcoding. And more interestingly, you can play (and color correct) stereoscopic Red footage in real time. Although this isn't "officially" released yet, it has already been publicly shown (at the last Red Day event).

 

[Robert McGee]

If you're using Assimilate Scratch the answer is yes, sort of. You don't get 200% speed, but you do get a significant speed increase for transcoding. And more interestingly, you can play (and color correct) stereoscopic Red footage in real time. Although this isn't "officially" released yet, it has already been publicly shown (at the last Red Day event).

Well, I know RED can do better. They didn't make this product, plus it doesn't say that it will upscale HD video to 2K/4K resolution. You need to think of it this way, if the RED Rocket 2 can work like I suggested then all you have to do is then go to like Technicolor or Deluxe to prepare your film and digital prints. For HD content, you edit the film in HD resolution and once you have it all cut togethor you then put it throw the RED Rocket 2 to have it upscaled to film level resolution. You hold on to the HD master for Blu-Ray and DVD release while the 2K or 4K master is used to make distribution prints.

I don't mean to go off-subject here but if this works then by the time we get to the RED Rocket 3, we may be able to take 4K footage from a Redone and upscale it to 8K, bypassing IMAX DMR.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

You might want to upscale 6k to 8k if you are using a rocket 3.

Thank you Mike.

 

[Stephen Gentle]

You might say that but 1080p footage has been upscaled to 4K resolution before in several cases, Avatar was shot using 2 HD cameras side-by-side because it was 3D and that footage was upscaled to 8K to be screened in IMAX 3D. The Panavision Genesis shoots at 1080p and it is also upscaled to 4K to be printed onto film. Films like Superman Returns, Planet Terror, SuperBad, all shot at HD 1080p. Now if Hollywood is going to do it, then the indie guys should be able to do it to.

But at the moment, most movies (even ones shot on film and scanned at 4K) go through the digital intermediate process and are printed back to film at 2K...

And, I still haven't seen any reason that if you really wanted to upscale, that you couldn't just do it in After Effects or Shake? I mean, a Rocket could speed it up but it's not like it really takes that long.

I still can't imagine that upscaling a 1080p film to 4K would gain though... Sure, it would make a lot of sense to finish a 1080p project that was going to film at 2K resolution, but having film printed at 4K is so expensive that I don't think it's worth it, and I think that you would see little improvement in quality.

 

[Robert McGee]

Plus the RED Rocket™ 2 would cut down from the expense of upscaling 1080p to 4K because it would have that feature in the box. Dave Klein said that when he shot Clerks 2 on film and scanned it at HD resolution for it's DI and then upscaled it to 2K, he said in the DVD commentary that he would have rather held out for a 4K scan.

 

[Robert McGee]

I know I keep coming back and you look at this and you keep thinking that what I'm proposing for the RED Rocket™ 2 is just bologna. What if the 1080p24 footage that you wanted to upscale to 4K wasn't live-action, what if it was say "CGI animation" you and a few friends just made an animated movie and you've done it at HD resolution because to do it any larger would have overwhelmed your PC or Mac, you have just edited the version that you want to submit to like say a film festival and you want to impress the audience with this film so you run the film throw the RED Rocket™ 2 to make it 4K, now your ready to make an awesome film print on the night of the screening.

You have an older film that you shot on 16mm or 8mm years ago, and you just completed an HD 1080p24 scan of it, now you put it throw the Red Rocket 2 to make it 4K and now your ready to re-issue the film. The coast factor is completely gone forever, because you own the device and it's for long term use.

Now do you how the indie film market can benefit from such a tool? Especially one made by RED?

 

[Robert McGee]

Another thing is that I keep looking around and there is nothing out there that does the things that I have suggested that this thing should be able to do.

As you can see no matter what you have shot or animated, it's a long-term money saver.

 

[Craig Parkes]

Another thing is that I keep looking around and there is nothing out there that does the things that I have suggested that this thing should be able to do.

As you can see no matter what you have shot or animated, it's a long-term money saver.

This would ONLY be the case if 4K was a major, or requisite deliverable.

It's REALLY not at the moment, and it won't be for some time.

Upressing in realtime to 4K from some other source REALLY isn't a major requirement, and if it was, I'm sure third party vendors such as AJA will come to the party pretty quickly offering it.

Here's the real question to you - if this was on offer, for say twice the current cost of a Red Rocket, would you buy one now? Have you already brought a red rocket? Because just because you have thought up a potential problem doesn't mean there SHOULD be a solution made for it. What matters is the number of people who REALLY encounter that problem on a regular basis who have a financial imperative to see it solved.

 

[Robert McGee]

If it was twice the coast of Red Rocket 1, I'd buy it now. Have I already bought a Red Rocket 1? No I have not. Trust me, AJA is not going to dish out a tool that could preform any better then what RED could dish out, plus you would have REDCODE format for everything that you have upscaled to 2K or 4K that is a compressed format and doesn't take up allot of disk space.

 

[Craig Parkes]

If it was twice the coast of RED Rocket™ 1, I'd buy it now. Have I already bought a RED Rocket™ 1? No I have not. Trust me, AJA is not going to dish out a tool that could preform any better then what RED could dish out, plus you would have REDCODE format for everything that you have upscaled to 2K or 4K that is a compressed format and doesn't take up allot of disk space.

Uh, Robert - I don't think you understand how Redcode works. At the moment NOTHING can encode to Redcode, it's an acquisition only format and because of it's RAW nature I imagine it's very likely to stay that way.

I don't even know if there would really be a way to upres and RAW sensor data before debayering that wouldn't introduce major artifacts of one kind or another.

As for RED being able to outperform a third party such as AJA when it comes to upscaling footage - that really doesn't make sense as part of the whole RED mantra is to avoid any need for upscaling -because everything is captured higher resolution at acquisition. I couldn't actually see RED going down that path because it would be counter to their core message.

 

[Robert McGee]

Then this is what you do, don't call it the RED Rocket 2, call it something else. I got a good name like say "the RED indie HD4K Box". No video format including Redcode is an acquisition only format, I haven't read that anywhere, not even wikipedia. If your saying Craig is that even if they wanted to make an upscaling box this way, they couldn't do it and they would have would make it where you have to capture it in another format? Now unless you work for RED, I can't take such a statement as fact.

One guy estimated that such a device would have to coast double then the RED Rocket 1 which sells at close to $5K now an indie filmmaker would be more then willing to pay $10K for what it could do. They wouldn't be countering their core message by releasing such a peace of hardware, they would be adding to it by saying something like this, now this is just speculation.

Red Executive:
We at RED started with the simple notion that we wanted to put the professional quality tools in the hands of the filmmaker so that he or she can make quality films at the same resolution as film while others where shooting at resolutions that where less then film like 1080 HD video, but today I am here to tell you all that we are going to embrace that track in some form because not all filmmakers can afford a Red One on their budget and unfortunately have to settle with shooting in 1080 HD. As we continue to move forward with our own product line with Epic and Scarlet we are happy to announce the RED Rocket 2, this product currently in development will allow filmmakers with professional quality tools that work at a much more economic level to have the same level of quality from any third party HDV or AVCHD Camara that you can get from a Red One. This will give all filmmakers and I do mean "all" filmmakers the chance to be seen and heard from their pears, the audience, and film industry executives that we have partnered with for the short number of years that we have been in business. He are hoping that the RED Rocket 2 will go on sale throw our online store as well as our authorized ventures sometime later this year or during the 2nd Quarter next year, this product is not meant to replace the original RED Rocket but speaking of our own Cameras, I am also happy announce that RED is currently at work on a Digital 3D camera that will capture two images at the same time, reducing the need to have 2 Red ones on set, he hope to have our new 3D camera ready following the release of the RED Rocket 2:END:

I think such an announcement would go something like that, I'm also an amateur screenwriter, give me some credit.