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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

It ain't the camera: It's YOU !

David Battistella

David Battistella

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Hi,

I don't know how many times I see a post on REDUSER blaming the camera for lack of performance, poor low light ability, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

It really gets tiring.

There are a few rules of thumb for the current EPIC X sensor that I follow. They are basic rules of photography/cinematography

1. In low light, use faster glass
2. Use the light to your advantage
3. Do not deprive the sensor of light (especially in low light situations where I am always at 320 ISO or checking the RAW histogram)

There are two things basic folks should understand about RED.

-The camera is not going to do it all for you (it's actually designed that way in that they do not sharpen images for example).
-Learn how to capture an image, understand what a histogram is, (the histogram is your friend!)
-Use the many tools that RED provides to help you get great images.

Most importantly,

Learn how to process your footage!

I'm posting a very common example here of why RAW is great and why, when you use it correctly you have a lot of options.

THis is an image from last winter. It's the dead of night in the mountains (when we know they aren't using the brightest lights, etc) This is an available light image that shows what the sensor sees and then two examples of how you can grade it to your taste to set a mood or tone you want.

The key here was to get as much light on the sensor as possible. For you "doc shooters out there" who want to capture images in available light the first consideration should be to get the fastest glass you can afford. There is a massive difference between a F2.8, F2.0, F1.8 and F1.4 lens (talking stills glass) as the amount of light they allow onto the sensor is mathematically exponential.

Before really posting and complaining about RED footage ask these three questions.

1. Did I use a fast lens?
2. Have I experimented/do I know how to properly expose my footage AFTER CAPTURE?
3. Is it really the camera or is it me?

Notice how the aperture does not change in these three images because all of the sweetening was done AFTER the image was captured.

Same shot, same frame, same lens, different takes, tone, taste.

This is why RAW rocks.

darkness.jpg
 
David and I must have had the same coffee today.

Phil Holland said:
A lot of what this is seems to be:

- lighting scenes properly
- understanding exposure
- grading properly (either developing style or inexperience)

A015_C004_12302V.0000226.jpg


Contrast, generally speaking, is one of the main concepts when it comes to lighting. When dealing with narrative we are often left with the concept of skintones landing approximately around midtone values. There are reasons to adhere to that rule and reasons to break that rule. Every camera provides the simple question how to create the best image possible for your desired look. Exposure is a tricky mistress and there is a technically correct answer, but there's also the creative answer. That creative answer often comes from a willingness to experiment and experience. High Key is often explored in comedies or family genres, Low Key is often explored in dramas or horror. The fun thing about Epic, Scarlet, and the Red One is that they are digital motion picture cameras and function like that. Meaning a great deal of latitude and a flexible raw file. If you want to see what you can do with Red cameras check out the last 10 or 15 features shot on Red. Lot's of variety from very experienced cinematographers with a crtical eye for quality control.

In my opinion when it comes to cinematography and photography lots of exploring and experimenting should be done. If possible on a daily basis. Especially when it comes to lighting. Starting out it should almost feel like a part time or full time job to do camera and lighting tests. Digital workflows allow you to learn and progress faster than ever. Being critical and seeking out that critique from professionals you respect can help move you along. That's exactly what I did a long time ago and it helped me out a great deal. There is such a thing as a desire to just point a light at it and roll, but without the critical mind and that desire to learn the quality within those images will never increase.

The amazing thing here on Reduser is that you have access to many working professionals who have been more than willing to share information regarding process and how to get the most out of your camera. David Mullen's thread is a tremendous resource for instance.

These days it's easier than ever to shoot a movie. Which means image quality is going to vary wildly. Like any craft, practice and effort will pay off.

Cameras don't kill images, people do.
Click to expand...
 
That is very funny Phil... !

i agree.

david
 
Some of the recent complaints are valid. BLACK should be BLACK, without noise.

You can expose a scene probably, even in daylight but the BLACK shirt or shadows still will dance. CRUSHING the blacks is NOT the solution. I am ultra aware of this issue and compensate for it but it's an issue and hoping the Dragon puts it to rest.

But it's about perspective. Was watching "Heavens Gate" last night. Shot on film in 1980. It's full of film grain, the equivalent of noise, you get used to it, it's part of the beautify and gives the piece an aged quality and I can appreciate it.
 
This isn't really an accurate example and is misleading. The 3rd example as a moving image is going to look terrible. The sensor might see into the darkness and you can pull information out but at a cost, NOISE. Using the boosted image is great for specific applications, to see that rarely seen mountain lion, bird, thief in the night etc... but it's not going to work in your feature film and this is what the camera is built for.

You are absolutely right about fast glass, it's my solution to my own short comings and underexposed images in the past. My way of correcting MY mistakes and as I continue to learn and grow as an artist the issues become less and less. Those new to the camera are naturally not going to be aware of these issues and I want people to rent my gear and have success with their projects. It's definitely not a point and shoot camera, mistakes are going to be made but BLACK should be BLACK IMO, without the noise.

Again, for those of us who invested in RED, the Dragon will be the payoff. The monocrome build already has hints of the future for color, just the other day a fellow RU refered to the noise in some of his tests and "Beautiful." If that's not a first, I don't know what is.

Enough of the "Mexican Jumping Beans," "The Dancing Flies..." I won't miss em.
David Battistella said:
darkness.jpg
Click to expand...
 
+1! Great stuff guys. Sounds like students who always blame the equipment for everything because it should be auto everything. I have been looking for great examples to show students as we launch into RED next semester.
 
Slow clapping from my office desk chair


David Battistella said:
Hi,

I don't know how many times I see a post on REDUSER blaming the camera for lack of performance, poor low light ability, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

It really gets tiring.

There are a few rules of thumb for the current EPIC X sensor that I follow. They are basic rules of photography/cinematography

1. In low light, use faster glass
2. Use the light to your advantage
3. Do not deprive the sensor of light (especially in low light situations where I am always at 320 ISO or checking the RAW histogram)

There are two things basic folks should understand about RED.

-The camera is not going to do it all for you (it's actually designed that way in that they do not sharpen images for example).
-Learn how to capture an image, understand what a histogram is, (the histogram is your friend!)
-Use the many tools that RED provides to help you get great images.

Most importantly,

Learn how to process your footage!

I'm posting a very common example here of why RAW is great and why, when you use it correctly you have a lot of options.

THis is an image from last winter. It's the dead of night in the mountains (when we know they aren't using the brightest lights, etc) This is an available light image that shows what the sensor sees and then two examples of how you can grade it to your taste to set a mood or tone you want.

The key here was to get as much light on the sensor as possible. For you "doc shooters out there" who want to capture images in available light the first consideration should be to get the fastest glass you can afford. There is a massive difference between a F2.8, F2.0, F1.8 and F1.4 lens (talking stills glass) as the amount of light they allow onto the sensor is mathematically exponential.

Before really posting and complaining about RED footage ask these three questions.

1. Did I use a fast lens?
2. Have I experimented/do I know how to properly expose my footage AFTER CAPTURE?
3. Is it really the camera or is it me?

Notice how the aperture does not change in these three images because all of the sweetening was done AFTER the image was captured.

Same shot, same frame, same lens, different takes, tone, taste.

This is why RAW rocks.

darkness.jpg
Click to expand...
 
A question for Mr. Will Keir-what the hell are you talking about? Epic is cleaner than anything else out there or that has ever existed. It is less noisy than any other professional video camera I have ever used, it is less noisy than 35mm film, it is way less noisy than 16mm film. I am being completely serious. I am not trying to bust your balls. I can't fathom a situation where one would complain that the epic is noisy. The only time it's noisy is when it's completely and hopelessly underexposed, and that's not the cameras fault. What situations are you in where you have noise issues? I am genuinely curious.

Nick
 
Will,

you are right to the extent that the more underexposed an area is the more likely hood there will be asking for noise and that is true with film stocks as well (in film it's grain/noise depending on if you are looking at a print or a digital scan).

There are interesting considerations about the "noise" in lowlight red images.

1. The noise is RED is a lot like film grain, I would describe it a filmic variable pattern noise unique to this brand.
2. RED is not doing anything in the sensor to limit the noise the sensor sees (as an example a tradition video camera would automatically crush black detail to supress noisy blacks/dynamic range and the sensors "weakness" when increasing gain or ISO. In this sense RED gives you an "honest" image which you adjust "to taste". Any artist has to appreciate this.

To put things in perspective on how sensitive the camera sensor is.

I just finished a film in which there is a scene in an actual darkroom (with safe lights only) that lasts for a few minutes while we watch a print appear under the developer. It was shot on a Canon 50mm f1.2 lens. That film has been finished in 2k and 4k dcp and I have seen the 2k (1/4 theresolution) projection on a roughly 60 foot screen.

Im not sure I've ever seen a cleaner darkroom scene on film. I'd have to ask Corrado Silveri (colorist and post for the film) but I am pretty sure he did not do a lot to reduce noise or to crush or supress the image, it wasn't even looked upon as a problem when we discussed our creative approach to the finish. Again, this wasn't a fake darkroom set up, it was a working darkroom where we witness prints happening in real time.

that blew my mind.

Black shading at operating temperature and letting the camera warm up goes a long way toward cleaner images.

stills do differ from motion, but it's nice to be able to pull slightly brighter images for stills purposes.

My example is in a, point and shoot, doc context. There are plenty of great examples , like spiderman, of how great the lowlight epic stuff is when you see how good we'll lit dark scenes look, but that has mostly to do with the art of cinematography and crafting images with light. A healthy lighting budget helps.

david
 
David Battistella said:
Will,
I just finished a film in which there is a scene in an actual darkroom (with safe lights only) that lasts for a few minutes while we watch a print appear under the developer. It was shot on a Canon 50mm f1.2 lens. That film has been finished in 2k and 4k dcp and I have seen the 2k (1/4 theresolution) projection on a roughly 60 foot screen.

Im not sure I've ever seen a cleaner darkroom scene on film. I'd have to ask Corrado Silveri (colorist and post for the film) but I am pretty sure he did not do a lot to reduce noise or to crush or supress the image, it wasn't even looked upon as a problem when we discussed our creative approach to the finish. Again, this wasn't a fake darkroom set up, it was a working darkroom where we witness prints happening in real time.

that blew my mind.
Click to expand...

Wow, mine too. I would never have thought to even try that with moving pictures... long exposure stills sure, but not moving. That's a great story! Now you've got me thinking.

OTOH, the first thing I did with Scarlet when I got it home was a candle light shot but just the same... for some reason I just wouldn't have considered shooting under safe lights. It's kinda funny.
 
Guys, look at some Caravaggio paintings, or renaissance paintings in general and learn how to light the way they do
 
I deleted my other reply, because I posted too fast and had miss understood your original intent and message David, with NO comment on the images, I absolutely agree on your tough, some people especially some of those ALEXA users, need to learn the ART of learning NEW tools, before discarding it, or complaining about it... ;)


And this goes for all small and BIG, to REALLY BIG< Directors, DP's and Cinematographers, don't EVER forget that there is always LEARNING to do in life, and it does not stop here neither, there will be more innovation, and not just form RED, learn to always be ready to LEARN and LEARN, and in life you'll always get the best of both worlds, be content with anything LESS then the very best, and you'll ultimately never get that VERY BEST you could have otherwise gotten!!
 
David Battistella said:
Ketch (fratello)

we are in complete agreement. The thread title "it's not the cameras fault, it's your fault" would have been too long and maybe would have offended some people, which I would never want to do.

The EPIC is the best tool for the job until RED makes it a better tool with the dragon sensor.

We agree!

spero che tu stia bene a Roma e I progestin procedano...


David
Click to expand...


HA HA, you are too fast!!


hope that my above (SECOND) post cleared that I did misunderstood and rectified my reply... ;)


All great in Rome, but I will be soon moving towards the Northern Region of Italy for some great progects... ;)
 
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