It ain't the camera: It's YOU !

[Will Keir]

I am not trying to bust your balls...what the hell are you talking about?

Nick, I'm glad you defend the Epic with such fervor. I've never shot and edited 16mm or 35mm. My camera use is limited to XL2s, R1 M and Epic X, as well as the usual SLR list, and will continue long after Dragon is but a memory of the days past.

Of all the cameras I consider my professional beginning with RED. No camera or workflow as occupied as much of my time and energy. I've been a believer long before I got great results and my most trusted method, as with life, has been trial and error. I'm not afraid to fall down, not afraid to look stupid in your eyes or those lurking, it is a part of my path and a point of reflection as I continue to grow as an artist, as a human being, as a friend to the RU community I have gained so much from.

The most important part of my involvement in film is understanding "WHY" I am doing it, it is the most basic question and the most difficult to answer and my search continues. Despite the sharks in the water, I am happy and thankful to be here.

The facts are simple, call it noise, call it compression artifacts, they are out there now and it's only going to get better. The RED system is not perfect, but I believe in the ethics of "obsolescence, obsolete." Since 2005, I have believed and continue to do so.

I could spend time uploading footage with noise (which would take a good 4 hours if all went well with the encoding), posting, e-mailing and perhaps I will, but it's not really worth my time or yours. I know the noise is there, I have seen others struggle with the same issues and I have seen those like you give good explanations and bad ones as to why it's there, but the noise remains.

I can't fathom a situation where one would complain that the epic is noisy.

My desire to be be "correct" instructors me to show you these situations, to prove I have a point. 2K 300FPS footage shot in daylight with shadows, 5k widescreen footage shot mid day on the lake with the trees in the background dancing despite being crush. Again, I can continue in this light but why?

The only time it's noisy is when it's completely and hopelessly underexposed, and that's not the cameras fault. What situations are you in where you have noise issues? I am genuinely curious.

Despite the slightly condescending tone I'm picking up on, your point is taken.

Video to follow.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Nick, I'm glad you defend the Epic with such fervor.

I'm not defending anything. The epic is just an insanely clean camera. It's like complaining that Epic has too many Unicorns in it. It just isn't the case (Well that was a bad example because you can never have too many Uncorns).

Nick

 

[Will Keir]

You would love Diablo III.

you can never have too many Uncorns).

 

[Will Keir]

Okay, here is the first shot with noise in the far off background trees. Shot with the RPZ 18-50mm [T2.8]. As you can see my exposure method was "ETTR"

Pretty good looking histo right? Notice the top right as the look set to "META." This is RAW in RC3/RG3, no corrections.

VIDEO encoding, will upload when complete.


Reserved for Video and discussion.

 

[Will Keir]

Again, shot with the same lens, same Epic X and RPZ 18-50mm but this time 2k 300 FPS widescreen. The shadow part of the rock is full of "dancing flies," compression artifacts. The 5k master on the shot was pretty clean.

Video to follow...

 

[Matthew Scott]

A question for Mr. Will Keir-what the hell are you talking about? Epic is cleaner than anything else out there or that has ever existed. It is less noisy than any other professional video camera I have ever used, it is less noisy than 35mm film, it is way less noisy than 16mm film. I am being completely serious. I am not trying to bust your balls. I can't fathom a situation where one would complain that the epic is noisy. The only time it's noisy is when it's completely and hopelessly underexposed, and that's not the cameras fault. What situations are you in where you have noise issues? I am genuinely curious.

Nick

Nick! I am trying to bust your balls. Have you not seen tests like this?

https://vimeo.com/39255526

It's one thing to say that the images from RED in low light are certainly usable, beautiful and manageable. But to go on about how it's all the users fault and nothing to do with the camera is just crap! I've seen amazing low light stuff from RED, lots of it. Defend your loyalty to RED, it's a good thing. I'm just saying, keep it real.....

 

[Scott Crawley]

It ain't the camera: It's YOU !


To look at this from a slightly different and perhaps more positive angle:

Several years back I was doing a short for a friend. He had tons of people, but no real crew to speak of. I was busting my ass setting up each shot. Were it not for our kind hearted sound man I would have been doing all of the photography, Gaff and grip work by myself. I was sweating my balls off. It was an HD project.

I remember huddling around the monitor consulting with my friend about the frame. It was a small eatery location so we were out in the open and I hadn't noticed, but a crowd of onlookers had gathered behind us, looking over our shoulders. That's when I heard it.

"That camera makes such beautiful images!"

If I had a nickel for each time I have heard that my Red would be well paid for.

Thanks to Red, I don't hear that as often. The images are more beautiful than ever, but folks seem to be aware that the camera doesn't do all of the work. Of course, I'm surrounded by more informed people these days but to some degree I can thank Red for that as well.

:cheers2: Cheers Red Team!

 

[Will Keir]

Speaking of balls...

http://willkeir.com/downloads/TheBeautifulLandLowRezExport.mp4

The encoding will take longer than I have today, really want to spent time with my family.

Here's a link to some test work I put together for the RED Film Festival. It's a rough cut but you can pick out the two shots from the pictures above. I'll upload the individual shots when I am free late this evening if you would like to inspect them. What encoding settings do you want Nick? Here's two situations I can show you.

As you can see, I shot plenty of tests in low light situations without noise with good results and the levels get better and better with each firmware update... Same lens, RPZ 18-50mm with the RPP 300mm for the long shots.

I'm glad I invested in RED, the images of the last 7 months are truly PRICELESS and cannot be duplicated, copied or recreated. I owe this to the vision of a man named Jim and the hard work and spirit of his team. That said, there's still work to be done. Good talking with you today.


Any particular settings for the encoding?

 

[Steve Sherrick]

David, great post! Hopefully the takeaway from this thread is that light is your best friend. Embrace it's generosity and be awarded with images that meet or exceed the ones in your mind. Shadows are also your best friend as they are what shapes the mood, gives us dimension, and ultimately helps us tell our story. When abandoned these two friends leave you with very little. I know from experience because I have abandoned these two friends on far too many occasions.

As for fast lenses, I agree that this is often a solution for covering up the crime but it is not always ideal. For one, you may need deeper depth of field for the action of your scene. This will require lighting- the right lighting. A feature I shot with John Bailey recently had several exterior night scenes. I recall we were quite often shooting at 2.8 or 4. They had faster lenses but that wasn't what was called for. Of course, when there's no other choice I suppose a very fast lens is the best way to get a good exposure. Just hope you can also get a great focus puller.

Will, I don't doubt your experiences. Noise is something that can have multiple personalities. I have a GH2 which is sometimes unpredictable with when and how it will manifest offensive noise. RED cameras are much cleaner than most but every once and a while they have their threshold as well. I would like to see the R3Ds from the shots you referred to. I think there may be something else going on there. An R3D trim of 5-10 seconds is plenty.

 

[Will Keir]

You got it Steve, R3D trims uploaded to my FTP. Others are feel to download and have a look.

Upload Status: COMPLETE

http://www.willkeir.com/REDUSER/R3D/

An R3D trim of 5-10 seconds is plenty.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Okay, here is the first shot with noise in the far off background trees.

So you applied no curves? Didn't adjust anything? There is nothing black in that frame, and the reason is your black level is way jacked up. Look at your RGB parade. There is nothing anywhere near zero ire. You can't just point the camera at stuff and expect decent results. You have to put at least a simple curve on it and bring your black levels to where they are supposed to be. Shooting red is much more like shooting negative than shooting video tape. Adding a curve can be as simple as going to the look menu in the camera and adjusting the contrast till you have some. It's not rocket science, but you can't just turn it on and expect good results. Well, you can if you have a good colorist and he knows what he's doing, but other wise you have to put a little work in to get the image you want.

Look at some basic color correct tutorials, read up on basic image control, learn what all that stuff is, and play with redcine for a while and you should have no problem making nice pictures. You have so much control over the image, you just have to what makes it look good.

Nick

 

[Steve Sherrick]

So you applied no curves? Didn't adjust anything? There is nothing black in that frame, and the reason is your black level is way jacked up. Look at your RGP parade. There is nothing anywhere near zero ire. You can't just point the camera at stuff and expect decent results. You have to put at least a simple curve on it and bring your black levels to where they are supposed to be. Shooting red is much more like shooting negative than shooting video tape. Adding a curve can be as simple as going to the look menu in the camera and adjusting the contrast till you have some. It's not rocket science, but you can't just turn it on and expect good results. Well, you can if you have a good colorist and he knows what he's doing, but other wise you have to put a little work in to get the image you want.

Look at some basic color correct tutorials, read up on basic image control, learn what all that stuff is, and play with redcine for a while and you should have no problem making nice pictures. You have so much control over the image, you just have to what makes it look good.

Nick

I think he posted the ungraded, camera default screens in Redcine-x for reference. The video he posted had a grade on it. I'll be able to tell more when I see the R3D.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Ah, Copy you.

Nick

 

[Justin Kirchhoff]

I feel I need to add to this.

Shot at 800ISO, F8, 1/400th shutter, 120fps.

 

[Will Keir]

Nick... I gave you the RAW view and supplied the R3D trims. I also posted my "tests" with a first light done in RCX. Sure I can crush the BLACKS to reduced the noise and I did. However this is not my point.

You mentioned that my exposure was the problem. Do you still feel that way?

I can't fathom a situation where one would complain that the epic is noisy. The only time it's noisy is when it's completely and hopelessly underexposed

Here are two situations. Would you consider either "hopelessly underexposed?" Here are two examples of situations where the histo and exposure are good and there is still noise. When you do the work, download the R3D trims and "play" around in RCX, let's talk again and I'd be glad to listen and see what you can offer.

Camera's are pretty simple once they get to us, I adjust for light with Iris or shutter, find my focus, double check my histo, stop lights and exposure tools and that's pretty much it. Point and shoot. Applying a curve is in POST. I believe my exposure for both situations was pretty good.

So you applied no curves? Didn't adjust anything? There is nothing black in that frame, and the reason is your black level is way jacked up. Look at your RGB parade. There is nothing anywhere near zero ire. You can't just point the camera at stuff and expect decent results. You have to put at least a simple curve on it and bring your black levels to where they are supposed to be. Shooting red is much more like shooting negative than shooting video tape. Adding a curve can be as simple as going to the look menu in the camera and adjusting the contrast till you have some. It's not rocket science, but you can't just turn it on and expect good results. Well, you can if you have a good colorist and he knows what he's doing, but other wise you have to put a little work in to get the image you want.

Look at some basic color correct tutorials, read up on basic image control, learn what all that stuff is, and play with redcine for a while and you should have no problem making nice pictures. You have so much control over the image, you just have to what makes it look good.

Nick

 

[Nick Gardner]

You mentioned that my exposure was the problem.

I did no such thing. I just said red is only noisy if it is underexposed. I bow out at this point as I fail to see the point of the discussion. You seem to be reading more into what I am saying than is there.

My point is quite simply, epic isn't noisy. That's just the way it is , just like the earth is round and cake is good. Nice looking stuff in your video. I thought it looked great. Pretty hard to tell definitively on the little intrawebs movie how much noise there was but it looked pretty damn clean to me.

Again, after looking at your footage, it looks totally normal, and cleaner than anything else you are going to shoot on at that resolution, so I don't get the problem. Mayhaps I am just not getting it.

At any rate, nice looking piece.

Nick

 

[Matt Ryan]

Will,
That looks like when Redcode breaks down from an overload of detail. Seen it quite a bit in shots with a lot going on and lot's of movement (water,tree leafs, etc.) or highly detailed scenes. It's unfortunate, and unavoidable. Hope it gets an update to improve conditions like this. I crushed both examples in the blacks and could still spot the blocky compression noise. Try shooting that wide vista shot in 3:1 and see if that changes anything. The 2k shot is unavoidable because your limited to a higher compression ratio making it far worse than normal.

For example, I reset everything to default, RC3-Redlogfilm, dropped ISO to 320, and added an s curve to get proper levels. Still could see the compression noise at 100%. Not sure what your f stop was or focal distance but both shots also look soft, a symptom of compression failure again in high detail scenes. Not saying I dont like RED, I've used a RED camera for every shoot I could get it on (yes I'm a RedHead), but it does have its issues.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Will. There is gain in your 1st example. Gain adds noise...

Flut is at ca + 0,5

If you had started a grade of that image either from linear/320 or redlog/320 or redlogfilm/640, without flut or exposure adjustments, i guess you,ll get far and noisefree.

Technically it is not ettr exposure, as you use allmost 2 stops of digital exposureliftbfrom zero. 320.800 iso + 0,5 flit.

But from the preview, it looks like an image that can be clean, if posted for cleanness.

(This is about your 1st image)

 

[Will Keir]

No worries, good discussing it with you, thanks for the opportunity.

I'm not pleased with those two situations, they feel like failures I want to fix. Take a look at the R3Ds when you get a chance. Hard to figure out why I got the "dancing flies" at those exposures.

I did no such thing. I just said red is only noisy if it is underexposed.

 

[Will Keir]

It really is. My worry is that it will look at lot worse on the big screen of the theater.

Pretty hard to tell definitively on the little intrawebs movie how much noise there was but it looked pretty damn clean to me.

Thanks Nick, good talking / trouble shooting with you.

Nice looking stuff in your video. I thought it looked great. Again, after looking at your footage, it looks totally normal, and cleaner than anything else you are going to shoot on at that resolution... At any rate, nice looking piece.
Nick