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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Introducing the Panavision DXL

Daniel Stilling said:
Raw is raw. Whether you apply the luts in camera or in post, it makes no difference on the genesis of the raw material. All luts are metadata and don't change anything on the data that's captured by the sensor. You can put a curve in the picture on camera or in post. The result is the same. The only way to change how the sensor sees things is anything you put in from of it and not behind. Lenses, filters and OLPF's changes the path the light goes through before it becomes data.
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This is true. However the DXL's custom OLPF suggests the DXL will have a custom look - even if its subtle!
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
This is NOT the case.
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Knowing you would not put your credibility on the line by making a false statement, this is very good news!

EDIT: But by saying my statement is "NOT the case" I suppose you could be saying that 8k sensors WILL be trickling out to those of us in the 8k queue while simultaneously flowing to fill the PV requirements... so, I change my response to MAYBE this is good news.
 
Nick Morrison said:
This is true. However the DXL's custom OLPF suggests the DXL will have a custom look - even if its subtle!
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Exactly, that's the point: Until they get a new OLPF in camera, all images out of the DXL are the exact same images coming out of a 8K Weapon.
And the reason I say this is that Panavision didn't chose a RED platform from where they can jump of and make leaps and bounds in IQ. They can't. They chose a mature and very successful system, where they are looking to just add a little secret sauce on top of it, kind of what DP's already do with filtration, lenses and so on. So images coming out of this camera will be very similar to what you and me can already do today. And I find that fascinating...
 
Panavision has not been a mass market company. They make highly specialized equipment for a small audience. I wouldn't concern myself so much with them monopolizing supply unless they somehow managed to strike up an exclusive deal, which seems a bit unlikely.

Elsie N said:
As it looks as though I'll be keeping my CF WEAPON and reserved 8k sensor upgrade, I am looking forward to PV promoting 8k production. This can only help when we get 8k in our hands as the public will remember 8k more than the PV platform when shooting all those tentpole movies... and that can be a priceless connection.

Only problem is that PV may suck up a lot of 8k sensors before they start trickling out to the rest of the 8k queue. We need more sensor fabrication!
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Mark L. Pederson said:
It will of course - increase demand for 8K Weapons. It has already :)
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That's my worry Mark. Will/can RED stay the course and deliver to the queue before capitulating to the overwhelming monetary/reputation crush of demand.
 
Scott Crawley said:
Panavision has not been a mass market company. They make highly specialized equipment for a small audience. I wouldn't concern myself so much with them monopolizing supply.
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Scott, ANY market for a sensor as rare as hens teeth can push delivery to an individual out months. That's something that I cannot help but be concerned with.
 
Elsie N said:
That's my worry Mark. Will/can RED stay the course and deliver to the queue before capitulating to the overwhelming monetary/reputation crush of demand.
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RED has a LONG roadmap that was defined before they announced the RED ONE. While they spent a good amount of R&D on a few things (projector, etc.) that they never shipped - the CORE of the roadmap is totally intact. And it is the reason they are so far ahead of other folks on an 8K sensor (and some other things). And they are working on stuff now you won't see for many, many years. How many sensor upgrades did other camera makers do before RED?

So ... As far as "staying the course" ... And customer loyalty ... Well ... I kinda think they have set the bar.

If you think for one split nano-second that RED will throw it's customer base to the curb for PV ... Then you know a different Jim and Jarred than I know.
 
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Daniel Stilling said:
Exactly, that's the point: Until they get a new OLPF in camera, all images out of the DXL are the exact same images coming out of a 8K Weapon....And I find that fascinating...
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This. Is. A. Great. Point.

In fact, if the DXL doesn't have the custom OLPF installed "yet" (is it still a work in progress?)...then the images being shown at CineGear may indeed be 8K Weapon with a Light Iron LUT applied, perhaps nothing more...
 
At the end of the day folks - what PV has done with the DXL is nothing short of FANTASTIC. They made some VERY smart choices and made a custom solution that MANY customers will love.

It validates RED's technology in a significant way - because as you may or may not have noticed - this is an industry of preservationists. Passionate, and often cranky, but still amazing people who mostly HATE change. RED got a world of hate for pouring the change on the industry. It wasn't that long ago that one man at PV worked hard to tell the world that RED "wasn't 4K", etc.

It's a little goofy to jump to the totally ridiculous conclusion that DXL will give you some magical images that you won't get with an 8K Weapon. Which the DXL is. Some of PV's lenses will do that :) But I can assure you that you will have many OLPF and advanced color pipelines options for your non-PV 8K Weapons folks.

I suggest everyone take a deep breath - and raise a glass to Panavision and RED - because they did something really great.

And we ALL will totally benefit from all the efforts of everyone involved.
 
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Mark L. Pederson said:
RED has a LONG roadmap that was defined before they announced the RED ONE. While they spent a good amount of R&D on a few things (projector, etc.) that they never shipped - the CORE of the roadmap is totally intact. And it is the reason they are so far ahead of other folks on an 8K sensor (and some other things). And they are working on stuff now you won't see for many, many years. How many sensor upgrades did other camera makers do before RED?

So ... As far as "staying the course" ... And customer loyalty ... Well ... I kinda think they have set the bar.

If you think for one split nano-second that RED will throw it's customer base to the curb for PV ... Then you know a different Jim and Jarred than I know.
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Not saying they won't deliver, but business is business and if a James Cameron comes calling and says, "Hey, we like what you've done with the 8k sensor. We want to buy x number of cameras for a Titanic sized shoot. It will really further your reputation in the industry. We need them yesterday!

RED could rationalize they have satisfied the loyalty to the customer base by pricing the 8k upgrade at 1/2 price (or even less) and divert production to that prestigious market.

As for roadmaps, the 8k sensor upgrade was actually supposed to have happened by now... at least that was what was implied. And yet, we do see 8k in the prestigious market and supposedly none in the hands of active REDusers who are in the queue.

This is in no way an attack on the integrity of Jim or Jarred. I've run a business before and I know about making decisions based on what's best for a business. Business is akin to war and I would have no other generals than the two of them (plus Brent) fighting my business war.

I know I am a private in that business/war and that while you try to keep your privates well equipped, privates are actually expendable in the big picture. But privates are an asset and you do not lose them through reckless attrition... that is, attrition through bad generalship. I trust my fate as a private to them and will follow their leadership wherever it takes me.

My hope is they are, or can ramp up sensor fabrication to accommodate demand, both past and present.
 
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Nick Morrison said:
This. Is. A. Great. Point.

In fact, if the DXL doesn't have the custom OLPF installed "yet" (is it still a work in progress?)...then the images being shown at CineGear may indeed be 8K Weapon with a Light Iron LUT applied, perhaps nothing more...
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Release date is what, January 2017?
 
Elsie N said:
As for roadmaps, the 8k sensor upgrade was actually supposed to have happened by now... at least that was what was implied. And yet, we do see 8k in the prestigious market and supposedly none in the hands of active REDusers who are in the queue.
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RED has always beta-tested their cameras on real movies before shipping any to customers. They have done this with EVERY camera and sensor they have made. Nothing has changed.

As far as timing goes ... it works like this:

When you make something that does not exist - how long it will take to finish is just .... a GUESS. It's all you can do. You can make gantt charts until the cows come home - but you can ONLY make an "educated guess" when it will ship and then bust your ass and hope you don't have any bad luck.

One silly $7 component (of hundreds and hundreds of electronic components) suddenly not being available can throw your entire schedule off.

You can't rent an 8K Weapon camera from ANYONE at this moment, not even from PV.

Now ... that might change next week :)
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
RED has always beta-tested their cameras on real movies before shipping any to customers. They have done this with EVERY camera and sensor they have made. Nothing has changed.

As far as timing goes ... it works like this:

When you make something that does not exist - how long it will take to finish is just .... a GUESS. It's all you can do. You can make gantt charts until the cows come home - but you can ONLY make an "educated guess" when it will ship and then bust your ass. One silly $7 component (of hundreds and hundreds of electronic components) suddenly not being available can throw your entire schedule off.

You can't rent an 8K Weapon camera from ANYONE at this moment, not even from PV.

Now ... that might change next week :)
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But it did exist... Jarred's prototype was roaming the streets of LA at night on the back of his SUV. It wasn't a mock-up... it was an actual working camera. Yes I understand beta testing (a cynic would call that market preference, but I'm not a cynic '-)

But we've seen specialty cameras being outfitted with 8k sensors. First the Zena-Morphs and the PVs. I don't think these qualify as beta.
 
Elsie N said:
But we've seen specialty cameras being outfitted with 8k sensors. First the Zena-Morphs and the PVs. I don't think these qualify as beta.
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Elsie - I am not going to get into a "what is beta and what is not beta" - but your examples are NOT "production units from the production line". They do not have certifications required to sell to the public, etc.

The cameras on Guardian are pre-production units. They are not "production units". Zena-Morph is a custom solution that will never be produced on a production line.
 
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