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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

I'll be honest - Dragon disappoints me

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Jim's stated goal is to build a camera for 4K finishes. 6K Bayer is better than 5K Bayer for a 4K finish. That is the bottom line.
 
Completely separate from any bitching about 6k/5k/4k, I think there's a lot of demand for Dragon to have c300'esque low light performance. That is my single most #1 hope for it. I want at least iso20,000 clean!!
 
For me high ISO performance is extremely important!
 
Tom Lowe said:
For me high ISO performance is extremely important!
Click to expand...

BIG time. In fact, it would be my vote for Red to continue to develop Dragon until it can at least match c300, if not surpass it.

If Dragon is 6k, 15 stops of DR and 20,000 ISO clean...good grief, that would be the camera to last a while! One Camera to rule them all :-D
 
Rob, I am trying to understand what your ideal RED camera would be. You don't have any need for the resolution as your clients only want 1080. Is it the RAW you like? So a 1080 RAW camera (post could be done on a super cheap computer) would be your ideal?

RED does listen to what we say on these forums so I understand trying to bring your needs to their attention. Close to 60% of redusers say they do want 6k and above so I think it's safe to say the 6k Dragon will still be an option. Do you want them to offer a 5k Dragon at the same sensor size? It doesn't seem that 1k difference would speed up post dramatically enough to warrant a completely different sensor though. Maybe a 1080 S35mm Dragon sensor? That seems closest to what you want...that would be an entirely different camera though. No need for the super advanced ASIC and chips needed to push through 5k @120fps...it would probably be much smaller and cheaper.

Those of us who need the higher resolutions need to protect our interests too (although I think RED agrees with us). It just seems like your ideal camera is something completely different from the RED Epic.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Tom do you want Red to fit 6K into a smaller sensor than Canon uses for 5.7K is high ISO is important?
Click to expand...
Yup... And that APS-C sized sensor is going to suit all of a fashion stills photographer's needs as well.

I guess Tom has a need to regularly intercut Epic footage with a 1DX or 5DmkIII, at the same high pixel count as the Canon time lapse.
 
Bob, I don't have have to have the return on my investment that you may have to have on your investment. I invest with cash money, you know the green stuff that takes years to earn, and seconds to spend, lol.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me or anyone else on here, who are you, you don't mean spit to me.

Nope don't have a day job, this is what I do, and I am debt free.

Nah, that's not really macho cowboy of me, I am the protector of my household, and I protect with with items that I am legally allowed to own and carry, whats your excuse?

Anyone can be a macho fool online, talk smack and start threads to create controversy and drama. It takes someone with a tad bit of self control to stop typing every thought that goes through his mind, creating even more controversy and what not. Yes that's not only pointed squarely at you, it is you.

These same type of threads were rampant when SCARLET first came out, people feel slighted and want to take it all out on the keyboard. Someone needs to close this thread, it's stupid.

Rob Ruffo said:
You will never break even on your investment. You are losing money at that rate. No question. You might not see it, but it's only because you are not doing your math in a realistic way.

Ask a someone who has been in the business longer or advice. I guarantee they will agree.

Let me guess - you have another day job and this is a hobby - sorry, "passion" - for you.

As for your welcoming that visit , that's very macho-cowboy of you, but I doubt you'd really welcome that visit. I also doubt that Oklahoma is anything like NYC L.A. or Montreal when it comes to these things.
Click to expand...
 
Jon Jones said:
Or at least move it to the complaint department...
Click to expand...

You really, really don't understand the difference between a complaint and a suggestion thread, trying to discuss in the aim of making Dragon better via feedback and ideas?

It's just a cheeky title.

It's seemed pretty obvious to me, but maybe this will make it more obvious:

It's just a cheeky title for a suggestion thread.
 
Tom Lowe said:
Jim's stated goal is to build a camera for 4K finishes. 6K Bayer is better than 5K Bayer for a 4K finish. That is the bottom line.
Click to expand...

I thought Jim's stated goal was to democratize production with empowering tools, and generally build the best camera gear ever made at an affordable price.
 
Mark Andersen said:
Dragon won't be for everyone, neither is a Metzler module, or a 300mm or a Technocrane. It's just another tool and option, heck some people kept their Red One and didn't upgrade to the Epic. No will force you to buy it, I for one will only start but upgrading one of my Epics, but will probably like it so much, I predict I'll do all three at some point. What we are seeing here is the technology curve start to plane off. The current camera is so good that some feel like we have arrived in technology happy land, and for many its good enough for awhile. I feel like this has already happened in still cameras. In stills I'm happy with 22MP cameras and don't really have a desire to get much more, it's not like most of my Canon lenses can really resolve much more anyway. But in digital cinema we can go a little farther, Dragon is part of that.
Click to expand...

No, a sensor upgrade should not be as specialized as a 300 lens.
 
Justin O'Neill said:
Rob, I am trying to understand what your ideal RED camera would be. You don't have any need for the resolution as your clients only want 1080. Is it the RAW you like? So a 1080 RAW camera (post could be done on a super cheap computer) would be your ideal?

RED does listen to what we say on these forums so I understand trying to bring your needs to their attention. Close to 60% of redusers say they do want 6k and above so I think it's safe to say the 6k Dragon will still be an option. Do you want them to offer a 5k Dragon at the same sensor size? It doesn't seem that 1k difference would speed up post dramatically enough to warrant a completely different sensor though. Maybe a 1080 S35mm Dragon sensor? That seems closest to what you want...that would be an entirely different camera though. No need for the super advanced ASIC and chips needed to push through 5k @120fps...it would probably be much smaller and cheaper.

Those of us who need the higher resolutions need to protect our interests too (although I think RED agrees with us). It just seems like your ideal camera is something completely different from the RED Epic.
Click to expand...

No, I said that 5K was the edge of diminishing returns for VFX and many things we do here. I have a 5K camera and it's perfect - although fo course colour and dynamic range can aways be improved to infinity - I said I don't need more as already I'm seeing the lens/filters, not pixels, as the limiting factor. 1080p finishes are the reality in my market, in most markets and will continue to be until 4K screen are common in the home, which will not be for some years. I don't shoot timescapes at f8 with no glass filtration for Imax release. Who besides Tom does as a main sphere of activity?

Boy, you guys really get upset at anything other than mindless "Rah Rah Red!"

You ought to give Jim a Jarred more credit for being able to hear more nuanced reactions.
 
It shouldn't huh? Maybe you should just send Mr. Jannard a PM and explain what a sensor upgrade should be, that should clear this whole confusion up with complaints and suggestions, eh? A cheeky title for a suggestion thread? That sounds a little like when someone says, I'm not trying to complain, but..... and then they commence to complaining, because that's what has happened.

Rob Ruffo said:
No, a sensor upgrade should not be as specialized as a 300 lens.
Click to expand...
 
Jon Jones said:
Bob, I don't have have to have the return on my investment that you may have to have on your investment. I invest with cash money, you know the green stuff that takes years to earn, and seconds to spend, lol.

It doesn't matter if you agree with me or anyone else on here, who are you, you don't mean spit to me.

Nope don't have a day job, this is what I do, and I am debt free.

Nah, that's not really macho cowboy of me, I am the protector of my household, and I protect with with items that I am legally allowed to own and carry, whats your excuse?

Anyone can be a macho fool online, talk smack and start threads to create controversy and drama. It takes someone with a tad bit of self control to stop typing every thought that goes through his mind, creating even more controversy and what not. Yes that's not only pointed squarely at you, it is you.

These same type of threads were rampant when SCARLET first came out, people feel slighted and want to take it all out on the keyboard. Someone needs to close this thread, it's stupid.
Click to expand...

Yes I am one of those liberals from the Coast. Just finishing off a plate of Arugula now. Might wash it down with some $20 bottled water with my gay neighbors before we go shopping at Armani. Guns are against the law here, and debate is not about picking a fight with people and drawing weapons, it's called discourse or brainstorming and welcomed. Picking a physical fight here will land you in jail in Canada, not make you a "real man" and $350 is a considered a day-wage for a good P.A. with no gear to bring to set - we like to all it a "living wage". Look it up.

I don't feel slighted. I feel sad because Reduser used to be a very different place before Scarlet was released and I used to enjoy it.
 
Huh? I alluded to none of what you just suggested....

I charge what I charge because I admit I am a novice compared to some of the greats that are part of the RED community. And although I have all of my own gear, and soon to have an EPIC and a set of Master Primes, I feel like I need to give the customer a break, and so I do. If someone were to hire Tom Lowe to camera Op. for them, It would be highly unlikely that he would charge anything close to what I do, but then again, he's a pro, and I'm not.

I kind of figured I would strike a nerve with the comment about the SCARLET, I knew by the tone in your text that you were still slighted or as you call it "sad" by the SCARLET release. I'm sorry things didn't go your way, brother.


Rob Ruffo said:
Yes I am one of those liberals from the Coast. Just finishing off a plate of Arugula now. Might wash it down with some $20 bottled water with my gay neighbors before we go shopping at Armani. Guns are against the law here, and debate is not about picking a fight with people and drawing weapons, it's called discourse or brainstorming and welcomed. Picking a physical fight here will land you in jail in Canada, not make you a "real man" and $350 is a considered a day-wage for a good P.A. with no gear to bring to set - we like to all it a "living wage". Look it up.

I don't feel slighted. I feel sad because Reduser used to be a very different place before Scarlet was released and I used to enjoy it.
Click to expand...
 
The only wish I have for the Dragon sensor is that it would be FF with improved low light performance.
I think most people would welcome better low light performance but 6K is great.
Any idea how many MP this work out at ?

Personally I don't see the need for any further resolution increases until storage costs reduce and 4K is adopted on a larger scale.

IMO it's more important for RED to get their RED PLAYER into every Post and Broadcast house before the end of the year,
and have their workflow fully integrated and accepted en-mass.

To facilitate this I think a RED Pro Res / DNxHD Module would make RED More attractive for Producers / Broadcast Stations,
Commercial and Low Budget Work.

Why not provide Epic and Scarlet owners with a choice. Let them use Pro Res / DNxHD for low end work
and RED R3D 4-5K for higher end acquisition.
Ok you can always attach a third party recorder to the Epic or Scarlet but a
reasonably priced module would be more streamlined and a simpler solution.

My 2 Cents
 
Rob Ruffo said:
Boy, you guys really get upset at anything other than mindless "Rah Rah Red!"
Click to expand...

Hahah, I actually re-read my post like 5 times to make sure I didn't sound like I was attacking you!

RED does listen, so the people who do need 6k and beyond feel like they need to defend it in this thread. If the thread was titled, "please release a 5k version of the Dragon upgrade as well" I think we would be less defensive.
 
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